I just wanted to throw out that if i were going to pick a race/demographic to be the scape goats for "lazy" or "freeriders", it wouldn't be hispanics

thrash;191958 wrote:
that's too bad, but i'd be hestiant to mention that the person was hispanic unless you think it was relevant.

percentage wise, the largest demographic of welfare recipients are white.

percentage wise, the demographic with the highest # of small business owners are hispanics

I'd rather keep the hard working mexicans and unload the lazy whites Or said differently, I'd rather encourage hard workers to stay here, and to help "relocate" the lazy. Irrespective of their race/identity/group affiliation

I debated whether or not I'd throw that in there...It was my personal experience though that the people who did it were Hispanic. Unfortunately for everyone, I don't give two piles of shit about political correctness. If the people coming in were mostly white, mostly black, mostly asian, I'd have said that instead of Hispanic.

DaveH;191946 wrote:
The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.

I agree 100%.

You are just setting yourself up for failure man...if you dont attempt to save money, aka cheaper rent, look hard for insurance, have your car paid off, etc...saving money isn't that hard. I don't get why it's such a hard concept to grasp...

Concept is easy to grasp. Reality is that somehow you have to pay for that car BEFORE it can be paid off, until then you are looking at full coverage, which is not cheap if you are under 25 and male....heaven forbid you have some driving infractions.

If I didn't go to school, i'd prolly be work around 55hrs/ week making approx 10/hour...lets say i get 30% taken out for taxes...so after tax roughly $450-500 a week after taxes (lets just say i make 500 for simplicity)...$625/month gets you insurance...out of around $2,000/month that then leaves you with 1,375...rent/house payment can be $500...but that's if you are the single person that lives there...chances are, you will either have others live with you, or rent would be less (prolly around 300-400/month)...we'll just go with $375...this leaves you $1000 for food, gas, and w/e in case your vehicle breaks...if somebody can't adjust thier living to that much, based on their income, then they deserve to live in poverty or whatever. It all comes down to laziness. If somebody has to learn the hard way and live low, then that's their problem. I don't think it's right that I should have to pay for somebody else's lack of responsibility when it comes to handling money...

Not everyone can work 55 hours per week. Some people have other obligations (child care, etc...) that makes it impossible to work the 55 hours.

BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...

Dustin addressed this already. Aside from that teaching jobs come with state funded healthcare (essentially...employer sponsored, but it is state money...) which is a big help.

Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD

I've never said you can't.

I do agree that welfare can be used for good...but the system is so messed up that it gets abused cough several (not all) bosnians cough

They can only do that for so long though. Welfare reform has mandated limiting access to public assistance for a<u> lifetime total of only 60 months.</u> So essentially they get 5 years to get off the program. Period.

percentage wise, the largest demographic of welfare recipients are white.

percentage wise, the demographic with the highest # of small business owners are hispanics

I'd rather keep the hard working mexicans and unload the lazy whites Or said differently, I'd rather encourage hard workers to stay here, and to help "relocate" the lazy. Irrespective of their race/identity/group affiliation

torbs;191947 wrote:
...but I'm also for programs that also weed out the people that take the system for granted.

Like the weekly Hispanic person that would come into McDonalds, hand in an application and flat out tell the manager that they didn't want to be hired...just had to show they were looking for work so they could continue getting that coveted welfare check.

DaveH;191946 wrote:
The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.

Yeah, this is true and I'm not denying it...just saying that it's possible to make a living off of $20k/year for any person who doesn't have a disability, etc...I'm all for programs to help people who deserve it...but I'm also for programs that also weed out the people that take the system for granted.

torbs;191940 wrote:
Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD*

The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.

StangerBanger96;191941 wrote:
Try mid 30's (base pay) and they work 9/12's of the year. They get additional cash for being coaches, assisting in extra-curricular activities, etc.

The Average pay is in the mid 30's ($37k to be exact)...but beginning pay is $24k...i shoulda clarified that prior...

however, it is possible to live off of 20k/year if you learn how to handle your finances...that's what im trying to get at.

torbs;191940 wrote:
BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...

Try mid 30's (base pay) and they work 9/12's of the year. They get additional cash for being coaches, assisting in extra-curricular activities, etc.

tjamz;191902 wrote:
so the average wage you list is ~$12/hour. While that is true in FARGO, it is not true of everywhere. To get the level of insurance I have (which honestly isn't that great...high deductibles, high co-pay) from BCBS I would have to pay $625/month. At $12/hour you earn $1920/month before taxes...figure ~30% for taxes so you took home $1344/month. Average rent in fargo is what? $500/month minimum? so now you have $1125/month in expenses before you eat/own a car/pay for renters insurance/car insurance/etc.... If you can do all those things for $209/month you are better at saving money than anyone I know. Yes, there are employers that pay for your health insurance, and yes, you could maybe knock ~$200/month off the insurance if single (more kids generally doesn't add to the cost....1 costs as much as 20)

You are just setting yourself up for failure man...if you dont attempt to save money, aka cheaper rent, look hard for insurance, have your car paid off, etc...saving money isn't that hard. I don't get why it's such a hard concept to grasp...

If I didn't go to school, i'd prolly be work around 55hrs/ week making approx 10/hour...lets say i get 30% taken out for taxes...so after tax roughly $450-500 a week after taxes (lets just say i make 500 for simplicity)...$625/month gets you insurance...out of around $2,000/month that then leaves you with 1,375...rent/house payment can be $500...but that's if you are the single person that lives there...chances are, you will either have others live with you, or rent would be less (prolly around 300-400/month)...we'll just go with $375...this leaves you $1000 for food, gas, and w/e in case your vehicle breaks...if somebody can't adjust thier living to that much, based on their income, then they deserve to live in poverty or whatever. It all comes down to laziness. If somebody has to learn the hard way and live low, then that's their problem. I don't think it's right that I should have to pay for somebody else's lack of responsibility when it comes to handling money...

BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...

Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD

I do agree that welfare can be used for good...but the system is so messed up that it gets abused cough several (not all) bosnians cough

:icon_albino:

tjamz;191922 wrote:
I didn't read the whole article, but I can say that if I were in rural ND, I would not want to trust my beater vehicle to travel ~20 miles to/from work (fairly common in central ND) in the winter....especially if I had to have my children riding with me. I'm assuming that the article figures things above the minimum and closer to the average....but even if it didn't

40miles/day = 200+/week
beater car gets ~20mpg, so 10+gallons/week $30/week...so $120/month....just to get to work
odds are there will be car payments, even on the beater...figure $150/month for 2 years...then repeat as car is worn out.
wear/tear= $50/month (guessing...no idea actually)
Insurance on financed vehicle=$75/month
figure another 400 miles/month for misc travel (sporting events for kids, daycare, shopping in bigger towns to save money on clothing/food/etc.. etc, etc, etc.....) so 20 gallons/month = $60

total= $455/month

DaveH;191913 wrote:
LOL, this thread just went wildly out of control again. ha!

It is a interesting article, I'd have to say they are allowing too much for housing. You can easily get a decent place for at least $100-150 less than that. $578 a month for transportation! WTF?!!?! You can buy a $1500-2000 beater and be fine. I'd say $250 a month is plenty for transportation.

But, my main beef is.... Why is this "generic" 24 year old lady a single mom with 2 kids (ages 4 and 6)? WTF was she thinking? Ok, sometime the Father may have been killed in an accident or whatever.

I didn't read the whole article, but I can say that if I were in rural ND, I would not want to trust my beater vehicle to travel ~20 miles to/from work (fairly common in central ND) in the winter....especially if I had to have my children riding with me. I'm assuming that the article figures things above the minimum and closer to the average....but even if it didn't

40miles/day = 200+/week
beater car gets ~20mpg, so 10+gallons/week $30/week...so $120/month....just to get to work
odds are there will be car payments, even on the beater...figure $150/month for 2 years...then repeat as car is worn out.
wear/tear= $50/month (guessing...no idea actually)
Insurance on financed vehicle=$75/month
figure another 400 miles/month for misc travel (sporting events for kids, daycare, shopping in bigger towns to save money on clothing/food/etc.. etc, etc, etc.....) so 20 gallons/month = $60

total= $455/month

Nobody ever says "no" to going to the doctor, doing whatever the doctor suggests, etc. Part of the reason is that nobody directly feels/knows the cost of care -- their very-low-co-pay or very-low-deductible insurance pays.

All of us know what getting car work done costs.. and everytime we "need" something done to our cars, we think... "do i just skip this, do i do it but cover it out of pcoket.... do i do an alternate repair for now and cover it out of pocket... or do i go with what the body shop says and submit the whole thing to insurance?"

people also know that high deductible auto policies save them money.

people seem to forget what they know about car insurance when they think about health insurance. The pricing system is the essential instrument of marketplace effectiveness in a capitalist system.. and when the consumers don't know what something costs, they don't know enough to decide to say no.

effectively, this means that the cost has no reason to decline. Naturally this is unsustainable and healthcare costs have exploded.

The #1 thing I'd do is completely decouple health insurance from employment. There are so many people that are choosing a job or staying in a job because that is where their health insurance comes from. If you've tried to get health coverage as an independent entity, you know how spendy it is and what a hassle it is. This contributes to peoples job insecurity, and most companies only provide a basic health plan with few options. If you give individuals conrol of their health insurance, more of them will choose high deductible policies. This means fewer claims are filed, and it means people are close to the true-price of services... meaning that they'll tend to use less of them or use them more wisely.

This will of course tend to decreease the demand for health services... and it will also decrease the amount of hassle providers go through filing insurance paperwork on an $80 visit. So generally, with fewer low-cost transations, and fewer transactions over all, and the administrative overhead per transaction going down.. it should be possible for providers to charge less (or be more efficient at their current price levels)

There's a private clinic I've read about that doesn't accept any insurance whatsoever.. just cash. Their costs are about 30% of usual-and-customary-cost. They make plenty of money, and their customers save lots of money.

Government health care moves the problem in the opposite direction. While people can get a vague idea of what things cost and what their options are today... once you've got government care... everybody's health is everybody's problem.. so its nobody's problem, and nobody knows what they're spending on themselves. In every "buffet" style service situation, there are some people that take tremendous advantage of the buffet.. to their own detriment and to the detriment of those that subsidize the whole affair.

Foreign heads of state that have universal healthcare generally come to the US to get work done on themselves. That's all you need to know.

tjamz;191903 wrote:
another interesting article I came across....not necessarily relating to anything:

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/fammgmt/fs577.pdf

LOL, this thread just went wildly out of control again. ha!

It is a interesting article, I'd have to say they are allowing too much for housing. You can easily get a decent place for at least $100-150 less than that. $578 a month for transportation! WTF?!!?! You can buy a $1500-2000 beater and be fine. I'd say $250 a month is plenty for transportation.

But, my main beef is.... Why is this "generic" 24 year old lady a single mom with 2 kids (ages 4 and 6)? WTF was she thinking? Ok, sometime the Father may have been killed in an accident or whatever.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/fammgmt/fs577.pdf

torbs;191877 wrote:
We all know that it isn't hard to get a job full time right outa high school that pays $9-15/hour...with that amount of money, funding one's own health insurance shouldn't be a problem (that and several companys pay for it anyway).

so the average wage you list is ~$12/hour. While that is true in FARGO, it is not true of everywhere. To get the level of insurance I have (which honestly isn't that great...high deductibles, high co-pay) from BCBS I would have to pay $625/month. At $12/hour you earn $1920/month before taxes...figure ~30% for taxes so you took home $1344/month. Average rent in fargo is what? $500/month minimum? so now you have $1125/month in expenses before you eat/own a car/pay for renters insurance/car insurance/etc.... If you can do all those things for $209/month you are better at saving money than anyone I know. Yes, there are employers that pay for your health insurance, and yes, you could maybe knock ~$200/month off the insurance if single (more kids generally doesn't add to the cost....1 costs as much as 20)

DrifterExtreme;191873 wrote:
just to make this clear i'm going back to the taxes being an equal percentage no matter the income.

now i don't care if your unable to pay your bills or are on wellfare.. or w/e

it is not my duty( talking mostly about my parents) to help your ass pay bills. who thought it would be a good idea to help out poor ppl. i think if you were smart enough to succeed in life why should you pay more in taxes then someone who makes minimum wage.

considering the amount my parents pay in every year would really piss me off if i was in there shoe's. i mean we have all these system's setup for poor yet the middle class gets the short end of the deal. i don't get it, and don't tell me it is because we can "afford" to pay in more. that is a shitty excuse to take from the rich and give to the poor.

so i'm all for taxes being equal...

This is a bit harsh here Matt. But to address your points:

I also am for an equal percentage of income being taxed.

Welfare has its place. Unfortunately, there are many who abuse the system, but there are circumstances where I can see it justified. For example....a construction worker making say $40k/year has a family. On his way to work one morning he hits a patch of ice and loses control of his vehicle and rolls into a ditch injuring his neck, making him unable to work/walk/function by himself. His wife and kids now need to make a decision, either put him in a nursing home (which will bankrupt them) or the spouse has to stay home and care for her husband (which will bankrupt them). Prior to this accident they made plenty enough to pay all of their bills, since this, however, their income completely went away. What is your solution? Evict them from their homes, leave them on the street to fend for themselves? What does that say about our society? Why not assist them with their needs? It will be less of a burden on society if we do it that way (help them vs. shun them).

Also, if you were to completely squash the welfare/medicaid system you do realize that something like 80 to 90% of the nursing homes patients would be forced to leave their facilities since a good portion of them are on welfare/medicaid. Who do you propose take care of them? How do you expect them to pay for their medication and other bills?

I also pay in my fair share of taxes, but you know what, I'm kinda glad about that. I've certainly had a few good things go my way in my career. Mostly it was right place, right time, but I can tell you I make more money in the higher tax bracket that I'm currently in than I did when I was in a lower tax bracket (I have a lot more deductions/write offs now as well)

torbs;191877 wrote:
blah blah balh i watch FOX News i know about politics blah.

Fixed it for ya..

And Matt, nice to see that we can agree on something when it comes to $$$ (equal tax for all)

now i don't care if your unable to pay your bills or are on wellfare.. or w/e

it is not my duty( talking mostly about my parents) to help your ass pay bills. who thought it would be a good idea to help out poor ppl. i think if you were smart enough to succeed in life why should you pay more in taxes then someone who makes minimum wage.

considering the amount my parents pay in every year would really piss me off if i was in there shoe's. i mean we have all these system's setup for poor yet the middle class gets the short end of the deal. i don't get it, and don't tell me it is because we can "afford" to pay in more. that is a shitty excuse to take from the rich and give to the poor.

so i'm all for taxes being equal...

1. Stop allowing prescription drugs to be advertised on TV. PERIOD. 90% of the time I watch those commercials and think "hmmm....on any given day I could have some of those symptoms"....and i'm not alone, more people DEMAND prescription drugs than ever before and Dr.'s are afraid to not prescribe them for fear of lawsuits....which brings me to #2

2. Frivolous law suits. They need to end. Period. Dr's charge so much because they have to carry crazy amounts of insurance. If a Dr forgets his watch inside you, absolutely you should sue him...if your incision doesn't heal w/o a scar, you have no case. Sorry.

I could go on, but I'm tired....Dave/thrash should have more input on this topic as well.

2slo50h;191854 wrote:
Of course universal healthcare is not in the budget, with the estimated **$60 Billion **that will be needed to pay for our returning vets injury and post dramatic stress.

:icon_thumleft:

Regardless of the view on the war, troop funding is more important than universal healthcare. That will never happen and never should.

GarageAlchemist;191837 wrote:
why? government provided health care is a big part of many countries pay outrageous amounts of tax

Fixed your post for you.