2wheeler;200061 wrote:
That's one thing I really like about my point of view on this subject. It's mine. I can change it whenever I feel.

Thats the joy of having nothing to back up your point of view. You can change your mind and it doesn't matter.

I think this thread has gone past any usefulness that it may have had. Merry Christmas everyone!

2wheeler;200069 wrote:
All I am saying is quit posting someone else's words. Type it from what is in your head. You guys live this stuff. Type what you know.

When I post, I am posting from what I know. I don't rush to find a website so I can copy and paste something. If I am not intelligent enough for you, that's not my problem.

The reason I post from another site is that the people on that site have studied and researched this far more than I. I read their work and come to my own conclusions. I choose to believe all some or none of the information presented. I figured if I gave you some good resources on the questions you asked you would maybe take the time and read and learn about it on your own. thrash has also given another good resource for this topic. I am not questioning your intelligence just that you need to read other things other than motorcycle magazines.

Merry Christmas!!!

2wheeler;200064 wrote:
Nail on the head Parker. This idea has been in my mind for a very long time. It is an awfully-close-to-perfect way of controlling the masses. Scare them into believing what you want them to believe. Hmmmmm.....sounds like government.

They picked a bad religion for that then. The bible commands that you honor no earthly man or idol before God. Kings and emperors hate that.

Lots of leaders have tried to wrap themselves in the bible or co-opt christianity for their own purposes, but there is no governance per-se implied in Christianity. The Christian church started in Israel while under a Roman occupatino government. It was actually illegal. People met in each others houses in secret. All of the text in the bible pre-dates any state official of any government being publicly Christian or supporting Christianity.

The faith took hold in secret, amongst the poorest and those without power, and did so inspite of the government, not with its blessing.

It is true that various people have tried to co-opt Christianity for their own ends from time to time, but the writings have been the same and said the same thing from the beginning.

To me, it doesn't matter how many sources someone can quote saying that the bible is a perfect translation for the past 12 trillion years. Who's to say it isn't all the same organization just continuing the trend?

If no amount of evidence will convince you of something, why discuss it? I don't see how what you're espousing isn't any more of a pure-faith based position than the wackiest religion. You beleive the bible to be untrue or co-opted, no matter how much evidence there is to support its authenticity? That's junk science, that's bad law, and it's intellectually lazy.

Look at how much money people throw at churches. Religion is a wonderful business.

Greedy people aren't stupid and will find money whereever it is made.

Here's what Jesus says... "whereever 2 or 3 of my followers are gathered, there I will be". There is no requirement to be part of an organized church, there is no hard and fast rule on what you are to give. The inventions and sacraments of man are one thing... what Jesus actually says are something else.

Some people spend money in ways which may not be how you'd spend them. With Christianity in the US, church attendance, church giving, and church membership are all optional. The church of Mormon asks for your tax return. Leaving the Muslim church is apostasy and in most of the middle east rewards one with the death penalty.

I've offered to lend a great book on all these topics in several posts. Nobody has taken me up on it. People keep repeating the same "arguments" like they're insightful. They aren't.

If the aim is to learn, please borrow this book. If the aim is to be hateful or inflammatory, I've only got so much patience for that sort of thing.

Parker;200059 wrote:
how do we not know the bible is some delusional ranting of some old man?

Because we know different parts of it were written by different people, all of whom have been proven to exist?

Secular archaeologists consider the bible a good sourcebook on the time periods it covers. As historical documents go, it's extremely accurate and well corroborated.

If you're seriously interested in answering the questions you're raising, please get a copy of "The Case for Christ". You and I aren't the first people to discuss this. Not to be too snooty, but there hasn't been one interesting or worthwhile "objection" to Christianity in this thread that hasn't been hashed to death before. Many of them are discussed in a reasonably unbiased way in the Case for Christ book.. so if you're someone truly looking for answers, instead of someone building a wall of excuses... just read the book.

fallguy;200068 wrote:
Your hilarious. You think that just because of something learned that it isn't my own. Am I suppose to have a totally different belief in something to be called "my own"?

I was taught evolution in school....I choose to belief in creationism. That is MY belief.

When I hear your arguments I just hear someone who hasn't done enough research on either subject.
All I am saying is quit posting someone else's words. Type it from what is in your head. You guys live this stuff. Type what you know.

When I post, I am posting from what I know. I don't rush to find a website so I can copy and paste something. If I am not intelligent enough for you, that's not my problem.

2wheeler;200061 wrote:
I guess I was looking to see if you had any original ideas on the topic.

I wish I could give all of my answers by copy and pasting someone else's argument.

That's one thing I really like about my point of view on this subject. It's mine. I can change it whenever I feel. It seems like you guys have no "freedom of opinion". It seems as though your opinion has been taught to you.

Your hilarious. You think that just because of something learned that it isn't my own. Am I suppose to have a totally different belief in something to be called "my own"?

I was taught evolution in school....I choose to belief in creationism. That is MY belief.

When I hear your arguments I just hear someone who hasn't done enough research on either subject.

2wheeler;200064 wrote:
Religion is a wonderful business.
QFT...

Parker;200059 wrote:
how do we not know the bible is some delusional ranting of some old man? is there anyway we can disprove that? is

Nail on the head Parker. This idea has been in my mind for a very long time. It is an awfully-close-to-perfect way of controlling the masses. Scare them into believing what you want them to believe. Hmmmmm.....sounds like government.

To me, it doesn't matter how many sources someone can quote saying that the bible is a perfect translation for the past 12 trillion years. Who's to say it isn't all the same organization just continuing the trend?

Look at how much money people throw at churches. Religion is a wonderful business.

you cant....

fallguy;200056 wrote:
This website has a ton of information supporting the creationist view point.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

but this is where is quoted the above from.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/biblical-authority-god-said

I guess I was looking to see if you had any original ideas on the topic.

I wish I could give all of my answers by copy and pasting someone else's argument.

That's one thing I really like about my point of view on this subject. It's mine. I can change it whenever I feel. It seems like you guys have no "freedom of opinion". It seems as though your opinion has been taught to you.

no.... we do not know enough about ouselves let alonethisw world or a god that we never see or can prove exists... yes you can say look around you, with all the complex stuff (plants, animals) you have to believe that theres a god... well no you dont... i look outside and see a rabbit that has evolved to shed its fur in place of a whiter coat for more protection from preadators... i shall rant more later

The bible's accuracy can only be described as "supernaturally" accurate from a information processing perspective.

Visual Studio 2002 is one of the first products we (MS) started shipping on DVDs. When you press a DVD there's a 1 in 1 billion chance of having a 1 bit error. However, a SL/SS DVD has 4 GB, meaning there are 32 billion bits on one. That means that statistically every DVD we press is going to have 32 bits worth of errors on it. It turns out that we had a much higher media failure rate than we expected with VS 2002, all due to this issue of a 1 in 1 billino chance of a 1 bit error.

The bible was hand copied, hand translated. It spread throughout the world faster than any book. It was translated into more languages than any other book. Everything in the bible was retold orally (as per the Jewish tradition) from the time of Jesus life to the time something was first committed to paper about 110 years later.

Yet what we see from all the bibles all over the world in all of its languages, is that there is essentially no content difference at all

That's unheard of in all of the history of recorded word. That's just one reason why the bible is special and why you can trust your life to it.

Like I said -- the Case for Christ lays it all out beautifully. I'll lend anyone that's interested a copy of the book.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

but this is where is quoted the above from.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/biblical-authority-god-said

2wheeler;200048 wrote:
^^^^^^I get what yer sayin Matt.

Now, for Parker and myself, can you give an outstanding reason why we should believe your story (the bible), as opposed to other people's stories (textbooks)?

Both are just books.

"One such evidence that the Bible has been copied accurately in the past is shown in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls, found by a shepherd boy in 1947, are dated from 250 to 150 BC. This discovery pushed back our available oldest Scripture text almost 1,000 years. And when the content of the scrolls was compared to later copies, no significant differences were found. That means scribes had been copying with great precision for almost ten centuries. This amazing discovery moved us one millennium closer to the originals.

We can also make sound arguments for the trustworthiness of Scripture based on lower criticism, grammar, and contextual evidence. We can show that the scribes were meticulous in their copying of the text of Scripture. We can evidence the life-changing qualities of the Bible in the lives of millions of believers. We can evidence the historical accuracy of the text of the Bible.

But there is another, internal argument for the accuracy of Scripture, based on the character and attributes of God, and this argument is supreme.

The Scriptures claim that God Himself breathed out Scripture (using human instruments, 2 Peter 1:21) and that it can be trusted to be His Word. His wisdom is infinite, and He is all-powerful and holy, so everything He says is trustworthy, accurate, and without error. Since God’s work will image His own nature, the accuracy of Scripture is guaranteed.

But this argument goes even further, including the faithfulness of God to preserve the record of His work through Christ. God sent His own Son, the second person of the trinity, to take human form for the purpose of redemption. What was the cost of God’s incredible gift of salvation offered to man? His own Son’s life!

The Bible is the record of Christ’s coming, His payment for our sin, and all the truths we need to know about Him.

The nature, character, and attributes of God demand that the Scriptures be accurateSo here is a question. If God sent His Son, paid the highest price imaginable for the redemption of human beings, and made a record so all future generations could know, would He allow the text to be adulterated and the message ruined by error? Impossible!

If God allowed the text to be lost and the message to be muddled, He would then be unfaithful to His own purpose and to His own Son and His sacrifice on the Cross. Logically, theoretically, practically, that is impossible.

God will not and cannot allow the record of the perfect work of His Son to be lost to mankind. Otherwise, He would void—for succeeding generations—the payment of His Son, Jesus Christ.

The nature, character, and attributes of God demand a faithful witness of His decrees, promise, plan, and purpose, climaxed in the death, burial, and resurrection of His Son"

They both require faith to believe what is in them is true. I choose to believe in God's book vs some book written by his creation that opposes him.

Now, for Parker and myself, can you give an outstanding reason why we should believe your story (the bible), as opposed to other people's stories (textbooks)?

Both are just books.

Parker;200046 wrote:
heres the thing.... until i have that life changing eye opening moment... its going to be hard for me to truely believe... i want to believe, but until i have one of those moments... its just going to be hard

The funny thing is in the old testament the Israelites had all the miracles right before their eyes!They were witness to all the plagues, they were delivered from Eygpt, the walking across the Red sea on dry land, the water from the rock, and Lord providing manna and quail everyday to eat, and their clothes never getting old, and they still had issues following God everyday. In the new testament Christ performed many miracles and still many didn't believe. The proof you are wanting is in the Word and in the world if you just look. Just because a text book says that the earth and the universe is millions or billions of years old, doesn't make it true. There are many evolution scientist that have changed their views after studying the Word and applying the evidence. ie: no transistion forms have ever been found EVER!!

fallguy;200040 wrote:
I believe that when you use the Bible and science together to explain things it only makes the most sense. I believe it takes more faith to believe in evolution since nobody was around when the universe was created. The creationist has a way to go back in time to see how everything happened and that is the written word of God, who was there at the beginning. Both evolutionists and creationist all have the same evidence. They both use the same fossil layers etc. "in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions." They are both arguging about the same evidence but looking at it through different glasses.
I used to think that the earth and universe was billions of years old too, but I only learned that from what I was spoon fed in school and in text books. Until I started really looking into the Bible and opposing views did I realize that the Bible does explain alot of what we are seeing today.
heres the thing.... until i have that life changing eye opening moment... its going to be hard for me to truely believe... i want to believe, but until i have one of those moments... its just going to be hard