XJHEAD wrote:
above post at 0307

Gotta get used to a new sleep pattern for weekend standy. Trying to, at least.

I normally work 1500-2359, but I've got standby this weekend. Show time is 3 hrs prior, so I gotta be in at 0300.

EDIT: Hope you (and all other Vets on here) have a good Veteran's Day. Drink a couple beers for me since I gotta stay sober. :icon_thumright:

tjamz wrote:
The point is it doesn't matter if the wheels are at rest, spinning forward or spinning backwards, so long as the plane is moving forward in relation to the ground it will take off....and a conveyor belt will not stop it from doing so if it is pushing on the free spinning wheels which have no affect on if the plane can move regardless. What you are failing to see is that the aircraft IS NOT STATIONARY, it is being propelled forward (in reference to the ground) via prop or jet turbine (or any sort of forward propulsion mechanism) and the conveyor is moving at the same speed backwards thereby causing the wheels to spin twice as fast which has ZERO affect on the planes ability to move forward.

It just clicked in my head, for some odd reason.

I think as I kept reading you and xjhead posts, and completely removed the wheels from the equation, it makes total sense.

:icon_salut: to you and xjhead. I retract most of my statements from earlier.

AFSil80 wrote:
But isn't that the whole point of the argument? To see if an a/c will take off while the surface the wheels rest on move in the opposite direction at the same speed, aka, being stationary? If that is not the point of the argument, or there is some other factor that hasn't come clear, then I have been arguing for the wrong side.

The point is it doesn't matter if the wheels are at rest, spinning forward or spinning backwards, so long as the plane is moving forward in relation to the ground it will take off....and a conveyor belt will not stop it from doing so if it is pushing on the free spinning wheels which have no affect on if the plane can move regardless. What you are failing to see is that the aircraft IS NOT STATIONARY, it is being propelled forward (in reference to the ground) via prop or jet turbine (or any sort of forward propulsion mechanism) and the conveyor is moving at the same speed backwards thereby causing the wheels to spin twice as fast which has ZERO affect on the planes ability to move forward.

XJHEAD wrote:
I think you better do a little more research on lift.

No, I know how it works. I was simply using the leading edge of the wings as a reference. Downforce on top, lift on the bottom.

how will the conveyor even start to rotate if the plane has not even moved forward, explain that one to me??

It won't. I know that.

I agree that is one reason, the other is that it would create alot of havoc during landing w/out them...

And a lot of unneccesary work for me, haha.

It will hit that speed..

Let us look at this way, say you put a bicycle on a treadmill, and you push it forward and the treadmill begans to speed up at the same rate as the tires, not at the rate you are pushing it. With this concept are you stating that you will not be able to push the bike off the treadmill pushing forward????

But isn't that the whole point of the argument? To see if an a/c will take off while the surface the wheels rest on move in the opposite direction at the same speed, aka, being stationary? If that is not the point of the argument, or there is some other factor that hasn't come clear, then I have been arguing for the wrong side.

I think 5 years in the Marine Corps working on the flight line troubleshooting F-18 fighter jets maybe makes me a little bit qualified here. Not just watching them take off and land like you and listening to other people who have no clue as to what the fuck they are talking about...

Enough said,, probally not let's hear it...

Not saying you're unqualified, or saying that I'm overqualified. And I do more than just watch them take off. I work flightline as well. I'm a structural mechanic, aerodynamic smoothness and structural integrity for the a/c is a critical part of my job.

Honestly, do some of you have audio implants to remind you to breath for fear of dying or WHAT?????

AFSil80 wrote:
Is there windspeed acting on the plane as a result with the thrust being provided?

No, there is windspeed acting on the plane as it moves forward which is a result of the thrust pushing the plane forward. The plane doesn't care that its on a conveyor belt, so long as the wheel can spin and the plane isn't bolted to the conveyor belt, it will take off because it will be moving fast enough IN RELATION TO THE GROUND to cause air to flow over the wings thereby causing lift. Case closed.

AFSil80 wrote:
Is there windspeed acting on the plane as a result with the thrust being provided?

There will be lift after the plane reaches a certain speed....

http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=35E964D9-38DB-4EFD-BE8D-D6BA1A43A06B

tjamz wrote:
I think its safe to say that me and Bill just killed this topic

AGREED:icon_salut:

because the thrust of the jet engine is pushing the plane forward, and the wheel axels are free spinning, once the applied friction of the wheels to their axels is negated by equal force from the thrust, the plane will make forward motion until it reaches speed to make lift, then if will fly.

AFSil80 wrote:
Lift has nothing to do with how much thrust. .
Yes, you are correct there. The engines are pushing the A/C forward the tires are not making it go forward.

AFSil80 wrote:
It's all about the windspeed hitting the leading edge..
I think you better do a little more research on lift.

AFSil80 wrote:
So again, if the wheels are freerolling and the conveyor belt is doing the same, the plane won't move. ..

Let me ask you this, how will the conveyor even start to rotate if the plane has not even moved forward, explain that one to me??

AFSil80 wrote:
The wheels keep the airplane supported until it builds up enough airspeed for the bernoulli effect to take place...

I agree that is one reason, the other is that it would create alot of havoc during landing w/out them...

AFSil80 wrote:
If it can't hit that speed, and it won't while it sits on a belt that can keep up, there will be no forward motion.

It will hit that speed..

Let us look at this way, say you put a bicycle on a treadmill, and you push it forward and the treadmill begans to speed up at the same rate as the tires, not at the rate you are pushing it. With this concept are you stating that you will not be able to push the bike off the treadmill pushing forward????

AFSil80 wrote:
You have to think out of the box on this, and a little knowledge of aircraft helps..

I think 5 years in the Marine Corps working on the flight line troubleshooting F-18 fighter jets maybe makes me a little bit qualified here. Not just watching them take off and land like you and listening to other people who have no clue as to what the fuck they are talking about...

Enough said,, probally not let's hear it...

Yes, wheelspeed has NOTHING to do with the aircraft taking off, it is its FORWARD MOVEMENT (or rather the air rushing over the wings) that causes it to lift off. On an aircraft speed is not measured at the wheels either, it is measured as air speed (the speed the plane is moving through the air) so if a plane is moving forward through the air (with wheels still rolling on ground) at 25mph and the conveyor belt turning in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION at 25 mph it DOES NOT stop the plane dead in its tracks BECAUSE the wheels do not generate the forward movement, nor do they negate any forward movement if a force is being applied to them opposite of the movement of the aircraft, it will just cause them to spin approximately twice as fast as normal. It is because the wheels have no affect on a planes forward movement that the airplane can in fact lift off when the plane is moving forward at the appropriate speed. NOWHERE in the riddle does it say that the airplane remains stationary in relation to the ground, it states that as the plane travels forward, the conveyor belt spins backwards at the same rate, but the backwards travel of the conveyor belt has little/no affect on the planes ability to move forward since it is pushed forward by its jets/propellor/whatever and does not get its forward drive by applying power to the wheels. Again, the airplane does NOT remain stationary, it is in fact moving forward and therefore is able to take off.

97slowgsx wrote:
exactly what mitch said, what conveyor belt can move as fast as a jet?

Don't think of it like that.

Think objectively, that there IS a conveyor belt that can keep up.

How does it move?

It has no mechanism to provide thrust.