DJIA, NASDAQ, and S&P 500 down big today
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Like he said, the left has no argument, and anybody that liberal has no methods or actual reasons for their argument. Therefore he is the beacon of light of left wing debate. Someone has to do it, and i would get bored if i couldnt post little one liners criticizing him for it
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Rexwagon;260945 wrote:
well the proposed bill may not be the greatest bill in every way. it has some good things. plus no one else has tried to do anything else. so if this doesnt work, well its more than the republicans have done. I mean the two sides bitch and moan at each other but only one side comes up with a plan. During these times wouldnt both sides want to come up with a plan and quit fighting with each other. fucken pathetic.The House Republicans did propose a bill that was half the cost (around the $400B) and included more tax cuts. They also believed it would create around 2x more jobs than the current plan. To say they didn't try to do anything is a total misconception and false.
The question between the two parties is not whether something should be done or not, but whether what to do. Dems want more spending and less tax cuts. Republicans want more tax cuts and less spending. That's a short summary.
And for Chuck to QFT you on that means he didn't do his homework either. Tisk tisk.
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torbs;261050 wrote:
The House Republicans did propose a bill that was half the cost (around the $400B) and included more tax cuts. They also believed it would create around 2x more jobs than the current plan. To say they didn't try to do anything is a total misconception and false.So they try once and fail. Great job, nice token effort. Why not try it in the SENATE, where you aren't going to get run over by an overwhelming majority? Do you have a copy/link to this bill? I tried googling it, but didn't have any luck finding it.
The question between the two parties is not whether something should be done or not, but whether what to do. Dems want more spending and less tax cuts. Republicans want more tax cuts and less spending. That's a short summary.
It's a different philosophy for sure...I think you've over simplified it though. Right now the dems (right or wrong) are saying "we've seen what tax cuts on the rich have brought us over the last 8 years...it doesn't work as planned...the rich pocket the money and ship jobs overseas...blah blah blah" So they are saying lets try stimulating by investing in infrastructure, lowering taxes on those who need the money the most (middle/lower class). They didn't reverse the "Bush tax cuts" like was feared....they left them where they were and tried to help the middle class out a little. Is there pork in that bill? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY, I'd love to see a pork free bill as much as everyone else, but it just doesn't happen. Obama was STUPID for saying he was going to get rid of pork in bills, at best you can hope to minimize it.
And for Chuck to QFT you on that means he didn't do his homework either. Tisk tisk.
I did...the senate republicans didn't do shit. This was the one area that I honestly think they could have had a shot at getting a competing bill through. They aren't that overwhelmed there. A carefully crafted bill, IMO, has a decent chance at success in the Senate. But I can assure you that it will require compromises. In case you weren't paying attention, the republicans lost the last election....they are on the brink of seeing a democrat super-majority that wouldn't need a single vote from them ever...and would be filibuster proof. <u>This SCARES THE FUCK OUT OF ME! </u>
So, before they get labeled as obstructionists, perhaps they should come to the table and start making reasonable compromises...it might mean a little more give than take, but at least they would have some chance of shaping policy.
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Chuck:
Explain to me how printing money to try and make this problem go away is going to fix anything?
Also explain to me how the additional $400 tax credit is going to help anybody out?
Or how when Dorgan comes back to ND and meets an overwhelming majority of people AGAINST the stimulus bill yet he still votes for it along his bullshit party lines? Explain to me how this blanket partisanship is going to fix this nation. It was a bullshit democratic spending bill and you know this. -
Rexwagon;260945 wrote:
well the proposed bill may not be the greatest bill in every way. it has some good things. plus no one else has tried to do anything else. so if this doesnt work, well its more than the republicans have done.. I disagree with this part, if the "stimulus" doesn't work then we are just screwed that much worse because of all the additional debt, and all the money thats being printed.Rexwagon;260945 wrote:
I mean the two sides bitch and moan at each other but only one side comes up with a plan. During these times wouldnt both sides want to come up with a plan and quit fighting with each other. fucken pathetic. Not quite true, the repubs came up with a draft of a bill, I'm not sure if it was allowed on the floor or not. Either way, it is their job to "fight each other" and come up with something that works. If they are going to "work together" then one of the parties has to give up on their principles. The Dems basically control everything, so they really don't need to "work with" the repubs anyway.DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
i keep telling you guys, take on all the debt you can. buy guns and coined gold and silver that you keep in your possession (as opposed to gold-shares that are held elsewhere). buy food, buy gasoline in 55 gal drums, and buy plenty of sta-bil.
Go into all the debt you can, because in an inflationary economy, the real-value of your debt goes to zero at exactly the same rate as your savings. Trading fiat money now for real goods (like guns and ammo) is going to be a winner.
The government has said that it is going to keep punishing people that save money. If you aren't spending like a drunken sailor, you're not doing your part. With the TARP and the new bailout bill, IIRC the FY09 budget shortfall is 15% of GDP.. more than 2x it's ever been in the history of the USA.
Rather than deflation, rather than contraction, the government is going to aggressively persue inflation. That means saving is dumb and taking on debt is prudent.
Besides, as long as you don't appear white and wealthy, your debt will be forgiven one way or another. Any debt you roll into a house is no problem.
http://Gunbroker.com has lots and lots of built AR-15s, AR-10s, Romak-3s, etc. http://ClassicArms.us has Romak-3's and Saiga-12s. Any debt you take on today to buy guns is probably going to pay. There are three possibilities:
- That One and his cronies manage to make all this shit illegal, but society doesn't collapse: your investment is HUGELY profitable on the black market, or, you can go out in style when the feds knock on your door
- That one and his cronies manage to finish wrecking the economy and society crumbles: sweet, every man for himself, you're good to go
- That one and his cronies don't manage to make cool guns illegal, and somehow the republicans kick That One to the curb in 2012. The economy naturally recovers in the 2010/2011 timeframe, 1 year later than it would have since the stupid stimulus bill passed and slowed the recovery down. Now you have all of these expensive guns that you don't really need. Call this the "break even" case, but you're euphoric since 1) society didn't collapse 2) you have all these sweet guns
Either way, buying guns is awesome, and the government is dumb.
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thrash;261089 wrote:
http://Gunbroker.com has lots and lots of built AR-15s, AR-10s, Romak-3s, etc. http://ClassicArms.us has Romak-3's and Saiga-12s. Any debt you take on today to buy guns is probably going to pay. There are three possibilities:- That One and his cronies manage to make all this shit illegal, but society doesn't collapse: your investment is HUGELY profitable on the black market, or, you can go out in style when the feds knock on your door
- That one and his cronies manage to finish wrecking the economy and society crumbles: sweet, every man for himself, you're good to go
- That one and his cronies don't manage to make cool guns illegal, and somehow the republicans kick That One to the curb in 2012. The economy naturally recovers in the 2010/2011 timeframe, 1 year later than it would have since the stupid stimulus bill passed and slowed the recovery down. Now you have all of these expensive guns that you don't really need. Call this the "break even" case, but you're euphoric since 1) society didn't collapse 2) you have all these sweet guns
Either way, buying guns is awesome, and the government is dumb.
Very very true...
Many of the guns in our collection over the years have doubled, tripled and even more in price... We bought our Colt (6700) Comp H-bar before the "asault weapons" ban for $900... day after the ban our wholesale cost on them was $2300... Just like we used to sell Russian SKS back in the day for $110 for hardwood stock and $130 for lamiated and chinese ones went for <$100... Now I dont even see russian ones, and if u do they are crazy priced, and chinese ones go for $200+
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thrash;261089 wrote:
i keep telling you guys, take on all the debt you can. buy guns and coined gold and silver that you keep in your possession (as opposed to gold-shares that are held elsewhere). buy food, buy gasoline in 55 gal drums, and buy plenty of sta-bil.Go into all the debt you can, because in an inflationary economy, the real-value of your debt goes to zero at exactly the same rate as your savings. Trading fiat money now for real goods (like guns and ammo) is going to be a winner.
The government has said that it is going to keep punishing people that save money. If you aren't spending like a drunken sailor, you're not doing your part. With the TARP and the new bailout bill, IIRC the FY09 budget shortfall is 15% of GDP.. more than 2x it's ever been in the history of the USA.
Rather than deflation, rather than contraction, the government is going to aggressively persue inflation. That means saving is dumb and taking on debt is prudent.
Besides, as long as you don't appear white and wealthy, your debt will be forgiven one way or another. Any debt you roll into a house is no problem.
http://Gunbroker.com has lots and lots of built AR-15s, AR-10s, Romak-3s, etc. http://ClassicArms.us has Romak-3's and Saiga-12s. Any debt you take on today to buy guns is probably going to pay. There are three possibilities:
- That One and his cronies manage to make all this shit illegal, but society doesn't collapse: your investment is HUGELY profitable on the black market, or, you can go out in style when the feds knock on your door
- That one and his cronies manage to finish wrecking the economy and society crumbles: sweet, every man for himself, you're good to go
- That one and his cronies don't manage to make cool guns illegal, and somehow the republicans kick That One to the curb in 2012. The economy naturally recovers in the 2010/2011 timeframe, 1 year later than it would have since the stupid stimulus bill passed and slowed the recovery down. Now you have all of these expensive guns that you don't really need. Call this the "break even" case, but you're euphoric since 1) society didn't collapse 2) you have all these sweet guns
Either way, buying guns is awesome, and the government is dumb.
when Y2k happened were you all stocked up too? lmao
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Nope. During Y2k, I was finishing college.
However, that was the (non-)event that compelled me to go practice shooting for the first time in my life.
Prior to the fall of 99, I had never shot any weapon more ominous than an air pellet gun before (and that was a friends). I met up with a friend of an older relative on his farm and practiced shooting a 12ga at some clays, and shot at some cans and jars with a .357 revovler. I found that I was an acceptable shot with either, and understood the operation of both weapons. I felt that was the appropriate amount of preparation at the time.
Y2k came and passed without major incident, and so I never rekindled any interest in firearms.
It should be noted that in the case of Y2k, the potential disaster was necessarily going to be temporary in nature. Some of the services that society depended on were at risk of temporary suspension. But the relevant thing to realize about Y2k is that embedded software was simply automating tasks that had been done by less clever automation, or by hand previously. Cities had water, electricity, and phone systems prior to the emergence of ubiqoutous embedded controllers. Hospitals still used paper charts.
Life would have been interrupted, but it would still look like life as we know it. Water, electrical, and phone outages are all things that society stays familiar with because they all happen to us now and then. The "catastrophe" would have been temporary, and as it was entirely a technical problem, we would ahve been on top of it quickly, with affected systems being restored using rudimentary workarounds first, and then corrected software being deployed sometime thereafter. Any breakdown of law and order would have been temporary. Society as a whole would be more focused with getting their water turned back on so life could resume as normal.
This is different. What does society look like when people are shovelling dollar bills into their furnace because they're worth more as heating fuel? (And lest you think this is something I made up, go read about pre-war Germany). And what happens if that's the best heating fuel because natural gas is too expensive for the gas company to keep pumping into people's homes? What happens to people in big cities that come from 3 generations of city-slickers and have no idea where food comes from if not the fully-stocked grocery store?
A lot of old people that lived through the depression have extra fridges in their basement, and their basements are filled to the brim with canned goods. They're not crazy. They lived through some shitty times. Not everyone did.
There's no harm in being prepared for a collapse that doesn't come. I hope that everyone is laughing at me in 5 years when this all blows over, and nobody came to take your guns, and nobody had to shoot anyone over a warm place to sleep or the last loaf of bread. If the worst thing that comes out of all of this is that I look like an over-reactive idiot, I'll take that. Plenty of people think I'm an over-reactive idiot anyway
The alternative... any scenario where anything I say actually pans out as being good advice.... is really, really unpleasant to contemplate.
I still live in town, so I'm not both-feet-in on this whole "we're fucked" boat. If collapse happens, it won't be over nite. The leadtime on getting guns has already gotten really long, so that's where it makes sense to start investing if you haven't already. There are inflection points, and I don't know what they are yet, where it will make sense (at least to me) to consider divesting property in/near town, in furthering ones self-sustainability, etc. We've already got huge garden plans for this spring. Since we're food snobs, that experience (and hopefully food source) will be a good call either way. It's something that I hope always remains a luxury, never turning into a necessity.
Here's an interesting read, if you have some time:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259
I don't agree fully with the guy, but it's something to chew on. -
integra_gsr98;261083 wrote:
Chuck:Explain to me how printing money to try and make this problem go away is going to fix anything?
Also explain to me how the additional $400 tax credit is going to help anybody out?
Or how when Dorgan comes back to ND and meets an overwhelming majority of people AGAINST the stimulus bill yet he still votes for it along his bullshit party lines? Explain to me how this blanket partisanship is going to fix this nation. It was a bullshit democratic spending bill and you know this.I don't doubt that it is a STRONGLY democrat spending bill. The democrats think we need to spend money on infrastructure (and a bunch of other stupid shit that I DON'T agree with) to stimulate the economy. In their minds we tried the cut taxes and see what happens approach for the last 8 years and saw what happened....the economy slumped (I know there are TONS of other factors, but everyone has blinders on as to what they all are...each of them contributed in my mind)
Money is created by selling treasury bonds and the like. These bonds are sold on the open market as a commodity (much like gold, copper, wheat, etc...) So it doesn't just appear out of thin air, but it's certainly not perfect by any means.
I still think that the Republican (and Democratic) party needs a new strategy though...there has to be some sort of common ground that can be agreed upon by the two parties to try and figure a way out of this mess....can we agree on that?
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torbs;261087 wrote:
Any bets that Chuck's favorite news source is NBC?The repubs in the senate couldnt do anything bc of the "Three blind mice"...Those three piss me off like none other...
I don't think I've ever watched NBC on a regular basis...surprisingly I watch Fox and CNN (to get each side of a given topic)
As for those three...they saw something that they felt would work. Maybe it will/maybe it won't. If it does work as intended, will you be a big enough man to admit it did? If it doesn't, I'll be right with you in saying it didn't.
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