National Health Care
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oh, quick movie:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPADFNKDhGM[/ame]
Milton Friedman was a brilliant statistician and economist. He is the author of "Free to Choose", and "Capitalism and Freedom", amongst others. He helped develop the modern IRS and tax code during WW2 to fund the war effort. He has consulted with government economists all over the world and was on the economic board of directores of the Nixon, Reagan, and probably a couple of other administrations.
He's smart, and he's on message in this 10 minute video.
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Gov't controlled health care is NOT the answer to our issues.
Why are insurance rates so high (public's insurance as well as doctor's insurance)?
Simply because this:
Doctors Insurance: They have to cover their ass from the sue happy, money hungry asshat's in today's society.
Personal Insurance: Because people go in to the doctor for the most stupid shit and expect insurance to take care of it.
Easy solution...
Insurance does not cover any visits under a percentage of your income (whatever that percentage may be).
If you file a law suit against a doctor for whatever reason and LOSE the case, you are held responsible for 100% of fee's. This will cut down the people who are just after some quick easy money.
I could go on about other things that shouldn't be covered by insurance, but these two seem to be a good step in the right direction (to me at least..).
Smoking, Alcohol, Drugs : Injuries and medical issues related to these should also not be covered as you know before you start 'killing yourself' what the consequences are.
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Grr;283054 wrote:
If you dont have enough cash availible to pay for a simple doctor or dental visit you are one dumb son of a bitch. Only stupid kids that have absolutely no income or drink it all away dont have a couple hundred bucks over the course of 3-6 months to pay off a simple bill. Get a life and go be poor somewhere else if thats the case, or mooch off your parents...:icon_scratch: have we met?
thrash;283099 wrote:
Interesting point: procedures that are elective and have no insurance engagement, like breast enhancement or cosmetic surgery, have gotten cheaper over time, not more expensive. When govenrment stays out of the way, the market does its job.elective surgery is cheaper now because insurance doesnt cover it! if insurance covered it what incentive would they have to make it cheaper?
take a bottle of 170 dollar brand name pills and then a generic version for 40. i have insurance so guess which ones get prescribed to me... is that the market doing its job?
just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.
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Link;283105 wrote:
Smoking, Alcohol, Drugs : Injuries and medical issues related to these should also not be covered as you know before you start 'killing yourself' what the consequences are."drugs"
like the ones that come in an orange bottle?
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Link;283113 wrote:
No. Pot, cocaine, etc. Not prescription drugs. (Unless your found to be a pill popper)For arguments sake...which do you think are deadlier? Prescription drugs or "illicit" drugs like the evil POT?
24valvenotak;283107 wrote:
elective surgery is cheaper now because insurance doesnt cover it! if insurance covered it what incentive would they have to make it cheaper?take a bottle of 170 dollar brand name pills and then a generic version for 40. i have insurance so guess which ones get prescribed to me... is that the market doing its job?
just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.
So what makes you think an insurance plan that has you and every single person in America as its other members will be any cheaper? Not only will you be paying for your neighbors kidney transplant and heart attack, you'll be paying for johnny crackheads migrane, jill the hypochondriacs weekly suspected heart attack ER visit, and every other problem under the sun. And best of all, it'd be run by the most efficient group on the planet, the GOVERNMENT. YAY! sounds like a great well informed decision!
I think everyone in America (besides politicians) agree that the current system needs to be fixed. The vast differences are between those who feel the Government should run it and basically give everyone "free" healthcare, and somehow believe that this system would both work and run smoothly and effectively. Then there are those who think we need entirely free markets where only hospitals/insurance run it.
Then there are those who I think realize that neither totally free nor totally government ran will work and understand that some guidelines need to be put in place but that overall the Government should stay the fuck out of it in order for it to run smoothly.
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PSiedTSi;283097 wrote:
Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
Nice post, glad you didnt even read my post before putting it up. I clearly listed "simple doctor and dental visits", not catastrophic failure. NO PERSON should have insurance that has a deductible of less than $1-2k dollars. If you cant afford that, you fail at life. It would keep worthless visits to a minimum. The only thing that will work is health savings accounts that are 100% tax free, in conjunction with a catastrophic insurance plan where you can set your deductible based on the amount in your HSA. I for one being young have a catastrophic policy with a $30k deductible, its so cheap im not even gonna list what i pay, think of a couple big mac meals a month.
There is no reason for me to have health insurance, and yes dental is kinda a joke unless you get a very specific policy, then your premium is much larger. I have absolutely no problem paying 20-30k if i get cancer or get put in the hospital for 6 months for something. The way it sounds im alot smarter than your family since they paid for insurance and still had to pay the same deductible i do? WTF is that about? My policy implicitly states that i will pay absolutely NO dollar amount over my deductible.
I think ive spent aobut $300 in the past 2 years on medical, and most of that is chiropractic from my military injuries since chiro is not covered there. And dont be mad cause i had the balls to join up and get free yearly checkups, everybody had the opportunity. Aside from my mandatory yearly checkup i do not use it ever, dont need it, and if yo pay cash doctor visits are so cheap its less than me driving to fargo to the VA, dont think ive paid over $50 in my life at the clinic
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StangerBanger96;283117 wrote:
For arguments sake...which do you think are deadlier? Prescription drugs or "illicit" drugs like the evil POT?There we go, I stared at my post for like 5 mins trying to decide what to write, and I think this is where I was going.
StangerBanger96;283117 wrote:
Then there are those who I think realize that neither totally free nor totally government ran will work and understand that some guidelines need to be put in place but that overall the Government should stay the fuck out of it in order for it to run smoothly.Yup.
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https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ED2006/DAWN2k6ED.pdf
Page 18
Illicit Drugs account for 31% of DRUG ONLY related ER visits
Pharmaceuticals account for 28%Not too much of a difference there...
IIRC Tylenol is deadlier and has worse side effects than Marijuana. If you'll watch the movie/documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" you'll hear one part where a guy is reading all the possible side effects of a "drug" and you're thinking "Holy shit who would use that?" only to find out he's reading the possible side effects from using Vitamin C supplements.
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https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ED2006/DAWN2k6ED.pdf
Page 18
Illicit Drugs account for 31% of DRUG ONLY related ER visits
Pharmaceuticals account for 28%Not too much of a difference there...
IIRC Tylenol is deadlier and has worse side effects than Marijuana. If you'll watch the movie/documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" you'll hear one part where a guy is reading all the possible side effects of a "drug" and you're thinking "Holy shit who would use that?" only to find out he's reading the possible side effects from using Vitamin C supplements.
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24valvenotak;283107 wrote:
:icon_scratch: have we met?just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.
weve only met 15-20 times
And insurance is mostly effected by you, yes. Its about time people start realizing there are great consequences for being a fatass and getting diabetes or being an alcoholic and your liver failing. Guess what, for the last couple thousand years those people died for their mistakes, and that is the way we should be heading now, theres no free lunch (or healthcare) and you are responsible for your own actions, not me.
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Grr;283120 wrote:
Nice post, glad you didnt even read my post before putting it up. I clearly listed "simple doctor and dental visits", not catastrophic failure. NO PERSON should have insurance that has a deductible of less than $1-2k dollars. If you cant afford that, you fail at life. It would keep worthless visits to a minimum. The only thing that will work is health savings accounts that are 100% tax free, in conjunction with a catastrophic insurance plan where you can set your deductible based on the amount in your HSA. I for one being young have a catastrophic policy with a $30k deductible, its so cheap im not even gonna list what i pay, think of a couple big mac meals a month.There is no reason for me to have health insurance, and yes dental is kinda a joke unless you get a very specific policy, then your premium is much larger. I have absolutely no problem paying 20-30k if i get cancer or get put in the hospital for 6 months for something. The way it sounds im alot smarter than your family since they paid for insurance and still had to pay the same deductible i do? WTF is that about? My policy implicitly states that i will pay absolutely NO dollar amount over my deductible.
I think ive spent aobut $300 in the past 2 years on medical, and most of that is chiropractic from my military injuries since chiro is not covered there. And dont be mad cause i had the balls to join up and get free yearly checkups, everybody had the opportunity. Aside from my mandatory yearly checkup i do not use it ever, dont need it, and if yo pay cash doctor visits are so cheap its less than me driving to fargo to the VA, dont think ive paid over $50 in my life at the clinic
K well sorry, it was early in the morning so I guess I couldn't read between the lines about that.
And as far as my parents insurance plan, we don't have a deductible system. It is simply copays. When I go to the doctor, it's $10. Dentist, $10. Regardless of what they did. Prescription drugs, $5. I don't know how their insurance was really set up, especially since my dad got his insurance company switched up at work during the whole process. I know the first place pretty much paid everything and he was able to relax about it. He was EXTREMELY stressed that the new company would straight drop him. There were a ton of question marks. They had to fight to allow him to get potassium shots after chemo("weren't" covered), etc etc. It was basically a fucking nightmare. I'm pretty sure my mom is still fighting with them about a bunch of stuff. We obviously weathered the storm ok, but at a time like that, you don't want to be dealing with companies that jerk you around at will.
I tend to spaz a bit about this stuff because I know what a fuckstain the insurance industry is.
StangerBanger96;283122 wrote:
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ED2006/DAWN2k6ED.pdfPage 18
Illicit Drugs account for 31% of DRUG ONLY related ER visits
Pharmaceuticals account for 28%
Not too much of a difference there...
IIRC Tylenol is deadlier and has worse side effects than Marijuana. If you'll watch the movie/documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" you'll hear one part where a guy is reading all the possible side effects of a "drug" and you're thinking "Holy shit who would use that?" only to find out he's reading the possible side effects from using Vitamin C supplements.
Great movie. I pulled out the vitamin C thing on another local forum(go figure), and just about got killed by it. Glad to see someone else realizing it too.
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And those are the things that need reform, that the house socialists and comrade obama arent even bothering with.
YOU should be able to choose your insurance company, if you wish, not the company. Agree on a price the company will pay and you pick your man, the rest of the cost is up to you. And you should be able to keep your insurance if you change jobs, and you should be given the option to NOT change policies when your company decides to do so. That way no one would have to go through what your dad did unvoluntarily.And the co-pay route overall is not a good program, its ok when your just getting a tooth cleaned and such, but when this kind of things happen, you loose everything you gained and then some.
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I haven't dug deep enough into this bill, but the ONLY gov't healthcare program that I would even consider getting behind is one similar to the way the one our senators/congressmen have in that their "premiums" go into a pool and then they get to choose the provider that they want (BCBS, Humana, etc...) from a group of privately held/run companies. IIRC they get basic policies like we do, but they can elect to put some of their own money into the policies if they want additional/supplemental insurance in specific areas (cancer, heart disease, accident, etc....)
"Advantages" of doing this:
Single Payer - All insurance companies are fighting for the business and need to make their plans attractive enough for everyone, yet remain cost effective enough for gov't to still include it as one of their approved providers.
Guaranteed coverage - Regardless of pre-existing conditions, you would not be able to be denied coverage (may have a waiting period, which I am fine with, before you can get covered for x, y, or z ailment however). I have friends that had childhood diabetes (and no, they weren't fat/lazy...they were athletes who were in good shape when diagnosed) that still have a hell of a time getting any coverage other than in employer sponsored plans.
Choice - You still have a choice in which plan best suits YOUR needs.
Gov't is (for the most part) not involved in the admin or ownership of the policies as their only real role (ideally) would be to set the minimum standards that would be covered (like they do already).\
Thoughts/opinions?
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I recently posted the following on my FB blog:
I am writing this to gather my thoughts on how to create a more perfect and efficient health care system in the USA. First I will start by creating a list of things that I think cause health care/health insurance to be expensive:
1 Reactionary treatment rather than preventive maintenance
2 Drug costs
3 Malpractice Insurance/Frivolous lawsuits
4 AMA/Universities limiting the number of healthcare providers in this country
5 Greed
6 Abuse of the ER system
7 Patients telling Doctors what to prescribe for them
8 Advertising of Prescription medication to the public
9 Doctors prescribing name brand drugs
10 Lifestyle Choices
11 Canned policies
12 Life Support
Now let’s look at each of the above and see what can be done to prevent/lessen these expenses:
1: There is an old adage that says an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Detecting diseases early is the #1 most effective means to both stop the disease and lessen the amount spent on curing the problem. The obvious choice is to have an annual checkup to better get a grasp on what is going on in your body. I for one think that EVERYONE (legal US Citizen) should be allowed a tax rebate (to be filed at any time in the year…or even filed electronically by the Dr’s office for immediate refund/payment to the clinic) for providing proof of 1 annual examination for themselves and each of their dependants….regardless of tax bracket. Obviously those that have Medicaid/Medicare are already being covered under this and would be the exception to my “regardless of tax bracket” rule, but there are a bunch of people who are not currently covered by any health plan that would benefit from this.
2: Drug costs are substantially higher in the US vs. other industrialized countries. Change the laws to allow for the importation of drugs from other countries so long as they are still in their original certified packages from the drug companies in those countries.
3: Lawsuits cost time and money for the Dr’s….and even if they win them, they may still suffer huge credibility hits. Do some lawsuits have merit? Absolutely! Should they be prevented entirely? Hell no! But how about we put forward a litmus test of sorts in that if the plaintiff AND THEIR LAWYERS in the case is found to have brought about charges that are completely unfounded, they are financially held accountable up to 50% of the amount they were suing for. Obviously this would be subject to interpreting what is unfounded and what is not, but it would (hopefully) stop/slow the sue-crazy world in which we live in.
4: Why, oh why does the AMA and Universities turn away qualified applicants from their programs? If we TRULY live in a free society then why are not ALL qualified applicants allowed to pursue the career of their choosing? Get rid of the affirmative action nonsense for a while and let those who qualify study what they choose to. This seems entirely like price fixing to me (limiting supply to increase demand) and should be made illegal. Period.
5: Not sure what can be done on this end. I am all for fair market values on things….perhaps if #4 were allowed to be changed then we wouldn’t have as much greed as it would be competitive.
6: Right now, just about anyone who walks into an ER is guaranteed to be treated…which is a good thing if they have an actual emergency. Sorry, but your little kids runny nose can wait until tomorrow. I’m even ok with covering every child that is a US citizen with health insurance because I honestly don’t think that they have a whole lot of choice in what home they were born into and what social class they fall. But back on topic, broken bones, high fevers, heart attacks, etc… are emergencies. No one should be denied help when they truly need it, but it’s not right that the ER gets bogged down with non-emergencies by people who otherwise couldn’t get healthcare…and worse, ER visits cost at least 4x as much as regular clinic visits and if the uninsured default on their payments guess who gets stuck with the bill? You and I do. So in a way we already have subsidized health care in this country, we just don’t call it that.
7: If I have a problem going to the bathroom too much, it is my responsibility to tell my doctor about my PROBLEM not to tell him that I need Flomax
. There could be a LARGE number of things causing this problem, and yes, Flomax may be the right drug, but unless I am a practicing physician myself, there is no way on God’s green Earth that I should be the one doing the diagnosis and telling him what to prescribe me.
8: Continuing with what is typed above, there is ZERO reason that I need to know about every new drug on the market. We are breeding a nation of hypochondriacs with all this crap. Let the drug manufacturers advertise in trade magazines and send out their reps to hospitals and clinics. Those are the people who need to know. Not me. Not you. I am ok with them having websites that talk generally about what their drugs do…at least then someone is searching for a way to cure an ailment that they already have and not one that they think they have.
9: Once there is a generic drug on the market, I think Dr’s AND pharmacists should be required to mention that to their patients along with any differences between the two (dosage amounts, frequency of use, etc… can be slightly different). If there is a generic drug available that is equivalent to the name brand, then I think insurance should ONLY pay the cost of the lesser priced option unless the name brand is directed by the Dr in writing due to special circumstances.
10: We, as a nation, are fat, lazy, people. This ties into preventive medicine as well, how about health insurance providers covering a membership to a gym/fitness facility? Don’t people who are in shape tend to live longer and be in generally better health? Maybe require an annual physical as well. Those that are at a high fitness level should get preferred discounts. Those who aren’t, but are making strides towards improving their health should get a standard rate and those whose physical health is in decline (aside from illness caused) should pay a higher rate for their insurance coverage.
11: Choices are good. For example: A post-menopausal woman does not have the same needs as a woman in her mid 20’s who is trying to conceive a child…and her rates should reflect that. In fact, I think that should be an opt-out of coverage for any woman (or man for that matter as child birth sometimes comes from the males policy as well….at least for the child). Cafeteria style coverage would be best. Everyone gets the same “main course” but you get to choose which “side dishes” you’d like with it.
12: Life support. I’m sorry, but there are far too many people that stay on life support for far too long of time. If 2 Doctors state that a patient has no chance of recovery and machines are needed to keep you alive, there is no reason to keep the machine on. I’d say that everyone should be allowed to be on life support for 30 to 45 days but that if there are no signs of recovery in that time, support should be cut. Sorry to be so cruel, but everyone has to die some time. And yes, I know that it would be EXTREMELY hard to do that with my own family (especially my child) but as I think about it now, with no emotional baggage weighing in on my decision I firmly believe that this is the right thing to do.I’m not a healthcare expert by any means, and the thoughts put forth may or may not provide huge cost savings, but I honestly feel that they would all be the start of something bigger/better for this whole country if they were implemented.
Please feel free to comment/add to this discussion. I do NOT want to see a nationalized healthcare system, but I fully realize that things need to change. -
24valvenotak;283107 wrote:
just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.You can safely assume that I understand exactly how insurance works. I'm not convinced you do. While risk pooling plays a part in setting premiums, an insurer could still make money on a risk pool of size=1. Insurance, in general, is not modelled on the assumption that the lucky pay for the unlucky. A lot of people think this is the case, but it isn't.
You should also assume that the size of my brain has little to do with the merits of our relative arguments, if for no other reason than mammalian physiology shows a higher correlation between brain surface area and intelligence than it does with brain volume [and this is why a human brain looks like it has so many folds in it: it does, to increase its surface area].
In any case, don't attempt to malign my intellect when you get the physiology of the mind incorrect, don't have a reasonable rebuttal to my arguments, and start from the fundamental position that stealing my money is perfectly acceptable.
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Trafik Jamz;283133 wrote:
"Advantages" of doing this:Single Payer - All insurance companies are fighting for the business and need to make their plans attractive enough for everyone, yet remain cost effective enough for gov't to still include it as one of their approved providers.
Guaranteed coverage - Regardless of pre-existing conditions, you would not be able to be denied coverage (may have a waiting period, which I am fine with, before you can get covered for x, y, or z ailment however). I have friends that had childhood diabetes (and no, they weren't fat/lazy...they were athletes who were in good shape when diagnosed) that still have a hell of a time getting any coverage other than in employer sponsored plans.
Choice - You still have a choice in which plan best suits YOUR needs.
Gov't is (for the most part) not involved in the admin or ownership of the policies as their only real role (ideally) would be to set the minimum standards that would be covered (like they do already).\
Thoughts/opinions?
lol....
it is kind of hard for private business to compete with a business (gov.) that doesn't need to run a profit............. not to mention they set the rules of the game :rolleyes:
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You missed my point though Zac, in my example above, the gov't doesn't provide a competing plan of their own. They do however make the payment to the insurance company on your behalf. BIG difference.
FWIW, Medicaid is pretty much run that way right now. The gov't sets the criteria of coverage for Medicaid participants and then companies bid against each other for the right to administer it. I don't know who the current administrator is for ND, but 10 years ago it was Noridian (BC/BS) and the ONE thing I can assure you is that the Medicaid plan was much much much easier to process than a similar "standard" bc/bs plan.
With Medicaid, Dr.'s knew exactly how much they could charge because everyone's policy was the same. You submitted paperwork 1 time and got paid exactly what your Medicaid contract said you would get paid and in a very timely manner.
With BC/BS the filing process was much more confusing as each policy covered things slightly different from the next (exception: When 2 people had the same policy under the same group insurance policy) so here is what would happen:
Paperwork Submitted - BC/BS demands that portions of bill be reduced and denies all/part of the paperwork - Ins Dept attempts to understand policy guidelines and makes agreed upon changes and resubmits - BC/BS approves or denies again - assuming it is all approved, BC/BS writes check to bank/deposits money - Ins Dept then reviews payment for errors, and determines remaining balance to be paid by patient - Ins Dept sends bill to patient - patient may/may not promptly pay bill OR may challenge what has been billed to them - etc, etc, etc.... If patient refuses/can't pay bill the clinic absorbs the cost and passes the expense on to everyone....not to mention the added expense of all the clerical BS that goes along with it. And no, this is not something I heard/googled. This was the day-to-day operations at Johnson Clinic in Rugby, ND when I worked in their insurance department as their Y2K/IT/Accounts Receivable guy....
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But you are right that private businesses can't compete with a business (gov't in this case) that has the power to run at a complete loss year-to-year-to-year and will just print new money to pay it's old bills.
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