Reagan- More liberal than we give him credit for?
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beachbum_jon;285828 wrote:
and what is exactly wrong with the CRP program? if its land that you cant farm anyways why not? We have a couple thousand in CRP, its almost worthless land thats near a slough. By participating the the CRP program you help protect the wildlife by giving them a place to find cover, reduce soil erosion, reduce sedimentation in rivers, streams and lakes, and also reduce on the amount of pollutants that are released into the air by the machinery that is farming the ground.I never said there was anything wrong with it. My parents participate as well. I just kind of find it funny that people thought it was worth buying and working (and presumably made a living on otherwise why bother..) prior to the program, but if you ask them now they tell you the land is worthless and not profitable. How is that any different than the federal gov't buying up bad assets from banks or providing money for the automakers?
Everyone is against a hand out, except when they can benefit from it.
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Trafik Jamz;285830 wrote:
I never said there was anything wrong with it. My parents participate as well. I just kind of find it funny that people thought it was worth buying and working (and presumably made a living on otherwise why bother..) prior to the program, but if you ask them now they tell you the land is worthless and not profitable. How is that any different than the federal gov't buying up bad assets from banks or providing money for the automakers?Everyone is against a hand out, except when they can benefit from it.
you fail at stirring.... -
you fail at conservatism.
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Reagan also ran on eliminating the department of education. That didn't happen. Today the NEA is the most powerful union in washington.
Regarding his tax cut and the cuts re-appearing: the economy was in the shitter during the carter administration. Reagan presided over the "anti stimulus" early in his administration, i.e. cutting a ton of taxes, and it took 18-24 mos of economic agony for it to kick in and work.
The result is the longest period of economic boom and real standard of life in American history.
Reagan had the right ideology, but his execution against it was spotty. I think we can thank him for a few things
- resetting the clock on the march of socialism in the US, even if only ideologically [although i'd say there was a fair bit of practical gain here as well]
- toppling the soviet empire
the Reagan plan for dealing with Russia, to paraphrase Galbraith (who is no fan of republicans) was "we'd take Gorbachev, fly him over America, and show him a swimming pool in every back yard, and that we could still outspend him militarily. Then he would understand the futility of what the USSR was doing. And as ridiculous as it sounds, it worked"
Ron Paul helped convince Reagan to run for President, actually, and later was somewhat critical of him in the sense that he wasn't able to do a lot of the things he said he would, and he also got us tangled up into some foreign misadventures.
The effectiveness of any president is of course limited by congress and public opinion. I think Reagan gets high marks for having the right ideology, even if he wasn't able to get all of it.
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chuck, this is a good topic to me since i am currently about 1/2 way through the 700 page "The Reagan Diaries" edited by Douglas Brinkley. All i have to say is, go buy the book, almost everything you listed in the first post is basically wrong, in his diary he clearly was opposed to everything you are faulting him on, but the VERY democratic congress played alot of games with him and they did finally have to make some concessions. He also remarks on how his "tax increase" which wasnt much of a tax increase, was only a percentage of what the democrats, namely Tip O'neil were trying to pass. Im not gonna waste my time finding quotes i read 200 pages back, so i just suggest spending the $20 on it, very well worth having around
Gary -
He still signed off on every item I posted Gary, meaning that he gave it his final ok.
Just because a book states one thing doesn't change the fact that he signed every one of those things into law.
Yes, I'm sure O'neil wanted a larger tax increase, but the affect of his tax increase in 1982 was that it was a larger increase (based on GDP) than Clinton's. But, TEFRA was led by none other than Bob Dole (republican from Kansas)
SOURCE=http://www.ctj.org/html/taxvotes.htm
The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981.
The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981(ERTA) embodied the "supply-side" vision of the newly elected President Ronald Reagan. ERTA was designed to reduce federal tax collections by $872.6 billion over the 1981-86 period. Among the provisions of ERTA were:
* An across-the-board reduction in personal income tax rates of 25 percent, phased in over three years. * Dozens of new corporate tax breaks, led by a new system of depreciation that actually produced negative effective tax rates on the profits from new investments. * A reduction in the top estate tax rate and a phased-in increase in the exemption. * Numerous new tax breaks for individuals with savings.Many of the corporate tax breaks enacted in ERTA were ultimately repealed by loophole-closing legislation later in the 1980s. The long-term legacy of the 1981 Act including declining federal tax revenues, decreased progressivity in the federal tax system and a much higher national debt.
The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act (TEFRA) of 1982.
Soon after the enactment of the 1981 tax cuts, the economy entered a deep recession, as the Federal Reserve tightened monetary policy in response to the huge budget deficits that the tax cuts engendered. Meanwhile, stories about widespread corporate tax avoidance stemming from the 1981 corporate tax breaks were causing a public outcry. Congressional tax-policy makers, led by Sen. Bob Dole (R-Kan.), decided that many of the 1981-enacted corporate tax loopholes would have to be scaled back to address the deficit problem and get the economy back on track. Following passage of the 1982 Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, the Fed lowered interest rates and the economy began to recover from the 1981-82 recession. The bill's revenue-increasing, loophole-closing measures also helped provide a blueprint for the larger-scale loophole-closing provisions later enacted in the 1986 Tax Reform Act.
The Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 (DEFRA)
The tax provisions of the Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 represented Congress's continued efforts to stem rising federal budget deficits. The bill added $103 billion to revenues over five years, mainly by loophole-closing measures directed at corporate tax abuses.
The Tax Reform Act of 1986
The Tax Reform Act of 1986 was a monumental piece of tax reform legislation designed to close loopholes and lower income tax rates, while maintaining revenues and enhancing progressivity. The bill curbed the most egregious high-income and corporate tax shelters that had become endemic after the 1981 supply-side tax act, and turned hundreds of large, profitable corporate tax freeloaders back into corporate taxpayers again. Overall, the bill closed an estimated $500 billion in loopholes over five years, and used those revenues to reduce tax rates.
The bill reduced personal income taxes for all income groups, including a major expansion of the earned-income tax credit for low-income working families. Despite a sharp reduction in the corporate tax rate, the bill's corporate loophole-closing measures increased net corporate tax payments by enough to offset the personal tax cuts.
The key House vote on the Tax Reform Act came on December 11, 1985, when the House voted on passage of its version of the measure. Realizing that the bill represented a fundamental reversal of the loophole mentality that underlay the 1981 tax act, recalcitrant supply-siders in the House led a revolt against the bill. In fact, they succeeded in defeating the rule allowing House consideration of the measure. Only intense lobbying by the Reagan administration (which had repudiated its enthusiasm for loopholes after 1981) was able to reverse that defeat on the House floor. The bill was passed and sent to the Senate a few days later. In mid-1986, the House and Senate passed the Tax Reform Act of 1986, and it was signed by President Reagan.
The Omnibus Budget and Reconciliation Act of 1987.
This was the first House vote on taxes after passage of the 1986 Tax Reform Act. Trying to stay true to the spirit of tax reform, the House Ways and Means Committee reported a bill to the House floor that avoided any significant changes in personal income taxes other than a measure capping mortgage interest deductions at $1 million in debt. Most of the revenues needed to meet the budget targets were raised through further corporate tax reforms, plus small increases in various federal excise taxes. As a result, the overall bill was generally progressive in its distribution, although the deficit reduction achieved by the bill was comparatively modest.
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This post is deleted!
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I guess the question is: Do closing loopholes count as raising taxes? In my world, yes.
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Trafik Jamz;285929 wrote:
I guess the question is: Do closing loopholes count as raising taxes? In my world, yes.LOL.....
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IOW, if someone takes away one of my deductions/write offs that I've had for a number of years (leased cars for example) and now I have to pay extra taxes because of it, then yes....it is a tax increase on me.
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How is a loophole a deduction? please clearify.
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Exactly, a loophole is nothing more than a deduction...until someone doesn't like it
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Trafik Jamz;285958 wrote:
Exactly, a loophole is nothing more than a deduction...until someone doesn't like itI would say a loophole is more of an oversight in the writing of the law, than an actual deduction.
Now that I have Chucks attention, can I get access to the "protected" forum here? Pretty please?
:drunken_smilie:
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;285961 wrote:
I would say a loophole is more of an oversight in the writing of the law, than an actual deduction.....
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DaveH;285961 wrote:
Now that I have Chucks attention, can I get access to the "protected" forum here? Pretty please?:drunken_smilie:
First you have to find someone who will vouch for you.......
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chuck you have to read the book, im not gonna read it to you. Reagan is one of only 4 or 5 presidents ever to take a daily diary, and the book is the exact diary he wrote, no editing. I will choose to beleive the ACTUAL words written by reagan himself, with descriptions of what happened and why, over what you gathered by reading the bill. Fact is he had to sign it, they did everything they could to get his full plan implemented, but there was no choice but to sign in a very watered down, and not ideal law, happens all the time and this is no different.
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