National Health Care
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DaveH;286444 wrote:
It's not the governments job to give us stuff. If the insurance companies are doing things that are illegal or unethical, then it is the governments job to regulate that. Thats it. What stage are we currently at in the quote below?"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
I thought regulations were non-conservative and impede the free market? My thoughts are that I'd rather have publicly funded health insurance than a war in Iraq. Can I take all of my federal income tax money and put it towards insurance instead of war?
Seems to me that we've had Medicare coverage for quite some time in this country and most elderly aren't "waiting in lines forever" to see a doctor. Most are very happy with the service and coverage that they receive. They, of course, still have medicare supplements provided by the private sector that fill the gaps at a very reasonable rate.
Thrash, I understand pre-existing conditions affect insurance companies decision on who not to cover (former insurance agent here....) But some have ridiculous stipulations. I'm ok with an insurance company refusing to cover me for asthma coverage for things like inhalers or medications. However, if I were to have a serious attack and went w/o oxygen for an extended period of time and end up seriously hospitalized I'd like to have some coverage to protect me from that (odds are EXTREMELY unlikely of that actually playing out).
Just for shits I called 2 insurance companies to see what a private policy would cost me. Non-smoker, very seldom do I drink anymore, non-drug user, average health, married w/ child, no family history of heart disease or cancer....only negative I had was asthma diagnosis and not using any meds...of any kind for asthma or any other disease/illness.
Cost from company #1:
$1200/month (family coverage) w. a $6,000 annual deductible, 70/30 coinsurance w/ a $250,000 out of pocket maximum per person.
Company #2:
$1150/month (set up same as above)
All this cuz I had an asthma attack many many years ago and saw a Dr. for it.
FWIW, I asked for the cheapest policy I could get from #1 & then matched #2 to #1's criteria.
I guess for the price of my mortgage I can have enough insurance to ensure I can get treated but not enough to insure that I wouldn't go bankrupt and lose my house if I had a major illness.
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no offense chuck but that's life.
but on a serious note. if you had to pay for health care/insurance like you described. wouldn't that play a role in your housing/food/auto/ etc... expenses? this way you can protect yourself against the unlikely incident that could come up?
I'm getting the feeling you want your cake and eat it to here. that's not how it works.
I can also tell you my dad pays $800/m or used to (before switching to the company offered plan) for insurance. Which covered him/mom/sister. (I'm to old/out of school to be covered). So your prices don't reflect everyone.
Also my dad has heart problems and has a stint in his heart. so...... idk what to tell you.
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DrifterExtreme;286454 wrote:
but on a serious note. if you had to pay for health care/insurance like you described. wouldn't that play a role in your housing/food/auto/ etc... expenses? this way you can protect yourself against the unlikely incident that could come up?I'm getting the feeling you want your cake and eat it to here. that's not how it works.
No, I want a policy that won't bankrupt me in the event that I have something major happen (That's why you have insurance...for financial protection). I don't have $250,000 just laying around. I'd have to sell my house to cover my expenses if I reached the $250,000 out of pocket maximum (and heaven forbid I exceed the $1million maximum coverage that they cover...then it is 100% back on me again). I buy insurance to protect me against major illness, not minor ones. In all honesty, if I were not covered under a "company plan" I'd do the pay as I go method and hope for the best.
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A lot of Americans have shit all ass backwards. If you don't have insurance provided you need to live cheaper to afford insurance. most people are willing to pay for that $1500/m house and think the insurance/health care should be free( or not bankrupt them as you put it). where's the logic in that?
DO i think health care is getting to a point were cost is of a great concern? YES. but do i think any form of hand out because i'm to stupid to prioritize my spending to allow for health care is ok? NO.
And i'm not talking welfare type health care, as we were at one time on some of those systems. so yes that is needed to help out. but to many people abuse the systems provided.
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Good, we actually agree on most aspects.
What you may not realize is that (as it currently sits) the US Gov't already spends more on health insurance than any other country that offers "socialized" healthcare.
Would you be in favor of a tax write-off for health insurance premiums? Meaning, if you bought health insurance you'd be able to deduct it from the taxes?
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I thought this was a cool video.
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amicheze;286504 wrote:
I thought this was a cool video.
You can believe a cartoon presentation or a real world argument.
Oh... and Obesity and alcoholism are not diseases they are choices.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
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63vette;286505 wrote:
You can believe a cartoon presentation or a real world argument.
Oh... and Obesity and alcoholism are not diseases they are choices.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded
amazing video....
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63vette;286505 wrote:
You can believe a cartoon presentation or a real world argument.
Oh... and Obesity and alcoholism are not diseases they are choices.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded
Not in all cases. There are diseases that cause obesity.
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Pre-tax HSA + High Deductible insurance for "expensive" medical stuff = the way to go
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63vette;286505 wrote:
You can believe a cartoon presentation or a real world argument.
Oh... and Obesity and alcoholism are not diseases they are choices.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded
Good video. What we don't know is which version of the bill it is talking about, but good video regardless.
Again, I don't want a gov't RUN healthcare program. I am not against a government subsidized program (either via 100% tax write off for premium AND out of pocket expenses incurred per year for healthcare; or via a program similar to Japan/Germany where the gov't writes the check to a PRIVATE insurance company...this is also similar to what our Senators and Congressmen have currently, so it can't be just too shitty.)
Also, there needs to be some reform/mandates/whatever on the insurance companies (even if the system stays as is).
Medical problems contributed to nearly two-thirds (62.1 percent) of all bankruptcies in 2007, according to a study in the August issue of the American Journal of Medicine.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by medical problems had health insurance. More than three-quarters (77.9 percent) were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness, including 60.3 percent who had private coverage. Most of the medically bankrupt were solidly middle class before financial disaster hit. Two-thirds were homeowners and three-fifths had gone to college. In many cases, high medical bills coincided with a loss of income as illness forced breadwinners to lose time from work. Often illness led to job loss, and with it the loss of health insurance.
You really want to tell me that our insurance program is working in this country when you have FACTS like those above? Sorry, if that is truly your belief that all is a-ok then I truly believe that you don't have an ounce of common sense.
The worst part about the above bankruptcy scenarios is that when someone files bankruptcy on the unpaid medical bills, the hospital doesn't collect what they are due AND they have legal fees added as well as they present their cases to the courts. So this leaves the hospital short on cash. How do they raise more cash?
Oh yeah, raise costs!
What happens when hospitals raise costs?
Insurance companies either "A" raise premium rates or "B" reduce coverage or "C" both.
What happens when coverage is reduced?
More people file bankruptcy!
What happens when premiums are increased?
People drop coverage.
What happens when people w/o coverage have major medical problems?
They file bankruptcy to get out from under these enormous costs.
I can't be the only one seeing a pattern here.
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StangerBanger96;286527 wrote:
Pre-tax HSA + High Deductible insurance for "expensive" medical stuff = the way to goSure...I'd pay $10,000 in deductible if that was my out of pocket maximum and the policy didn't have a cap on it for coverage amounts. See post above for why.
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Chuck remember when i said people are not prioritizing healthcare? If you know it is expensive and you know there is a chance "something big"(injury/disease) could put you deep in debt. then why would it not be a higher priority then say car/housing/etc....?
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DrifterExtreme;286536 wrote:
Chuck remember when i said people are not prioritizing healthcare? If you know it is expensive and you know there is a chance "something big"(injury/disease) could put you deep in debt. then why would it not be a higher priority then say car/housing/etc....?Yes, but paying ridiculously high premiums for catastrophic coverage that doesn't even protect your assets when the worst does happen seems fucked up to me. I understand that you are saying my life is worth more than my assets, but the livelihood of my wife and son is FAR more important to me than my own life. The last thing I'd want to see happen is to die from cancer (or pick any other debilitating disease) and leave them with a huge pile of bills and nowhere to live. Yes, I have life insurance and major medical, but if I had hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills when I died that weren't covered by my health/life insurance policies I would effectively be putting my family on the street. People buy insurance for financial protection. They buy it to prevent bankruptcy in the event of a catastrophic illness/death. That is the thing that YOU don't seem to realize. It has nothing to do with MY life, it's about insuring the livelihood of those left behind. Being able to pass something on (besides bills).
See below:
Trafik Jamz;286533 wrote:
Medical problems contributed to nearly two-thirds (62.1 percent) of all bankruptcies in 2007, according to a study in the August issue of the American Journal of Medicine.Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by medical problems had health insurance. More than three-quarters (77.9 percent) were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness, including 60.3 percent who had private coverage. Most of the medically bankrupt were solidly middle class before financial disaster hit. Two-thirds were homeowners and three-fifths had gone to college. In many cases, high medical bills coincided with a loss of income as illness forced breadwinners to lose time from work. Often illness led to job loss, and with it the loss of health insurance.
You really want to tell me that our insurance program is working in this country when you have FACTS like those above? Sorry, if that is truly your belief that all is a-ok then I truly believe that you don't have an ounce of common sense.
The worst part about the above bankruptcy scenarios is that when someone files bankruptcy on the unpaid medical bills, the hospital doesn't collect what they are due AND they have legal fees added as well as they present their cases to the courts. So this leaves the hospital short on cash. How do they raise more cash?
Oh yeah, raise costs!
What happens when hospitals raise costs?
Insurance companies either "A" raise premium rates or "B" reduce coverage or "C" both.
What happens when coverage is reduced?
More people file bankruptcy!
What happens when premiums are increased?
People drop coverage.
What happens when people w/o coverage have major medical problems?
They file bankruptcy to get out from under these enormous costs.
I can't be the only one seeing a pattern here.
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i think you may be bordering on one of the real problems that america has but doesn't address: money, not the lack of it, but the lack of dialogue about it. having sold health and life insurance, and investment products, i believe there isn't enough education about what people need.
far too many people who are over 50 have 5k-10k in life insurance, plus what their employer offers, if that much. most people in their 20s and 30s don't have private life insurance, and they've got 2+ kids! what people don't understand is financial planning, both short and long term (which includes health issues, long life plans, and death).
do i think socialism is the way that this country should go? yes, but not because i like it, because americans need a nanny-state. americans have been spoon-fed for so long that they can't even wipe their own butts... which is exactly what our government wants. if i have to spell out why that is, you probably think everyone in government cares about our best interests.
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I don't think we need socialism (true socialized healthcare would be gov't provided healthcare with no choices in who you go to for medical care and all the Dr's working for the gov't, not for themselves), I just think there needs to be better rules/reform to ensure that those who are doing the responsible thing (life, health, supplemental insurance, diverse retirement, etc...) can have a reasonable expectation that their financial interests will be taken care of if/when they have a major health problem.
Trust me when I say I've been contributing to all of the above for as long as I was legally allowed to do so (insurances and investments) and the thought of being diagnosed with cancer and the likelihood that it would be solely responsible for my financial ruin after 16+ years of contribution to the protections/investments pisses me off.
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out there;286544 wrote:
do i think socialism is the way that this country should go? yes, but not because i like it, because americans need a nanny-state. americans have been spoon-fed for so long that they can't even wipe their own butts... which is exactly what our government wants. if i have to spell out why that is, you probably think everyone in government cares about our best interests.Was that sarcasm??
I hope so
The "nanny-state" is the problem..... No one should be spoon fed, life is cutthroat and if you aren't smart enough or lack the motivation to make in in the world then so be it.
so you want to take incentive and opportunity away from every one to babysit a few?
trust me if all the government handouts were gone people would shape up financially right quick, they would have to
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it was not sarcasm, i was addressing the fact that a large portion (probably the majority) of the population can't handle the responsibilities that come with adulthood.
if people in this country could handle those responsibilities, there wouldn't be epidemic-level obesity, rampant alcohol-related deaths, excessive illnesses caused by processed tobacco, et al. there are so many problems with a snapshot of america that it makes me sick.
as i've said before, i would leave this country if i weren't so socially inept.
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out there;286551 wrote:
it was not sarcasm, i was addressing the fact that a large portion (probably the majority) of the population can't handle the responsibilities that come with adulthood.So your approach to solving this is with the government becoming more and more of the parent figure and watching out over all and making the dependency worse??
You know i am going to state a fucked up analogy right now....
This is just like the fucking movie "Wall-e", yeah yeah, i know.
The government is like the chair.... the more and more it does for you over time the less and less a person is able to do or remembers how to do, to the point that they can no longer walk, let alone stand
Kick the fucking chair out from under them and the ability to take care of themselves comes back rather fast.
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