Universal Health care: What does it mean for us a citizens?
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If you read Japanprobe and other english-language sources, you won't get such a rosy picture of hospital care in Japan. I remember a couple of stories about people are dying because hospitals are turning them away. Why? Because they don't feel they could do the procedure. What was the procedure? Childbirth. They put one woman in an ambulance and kept sending her from place to place; nobody wanted to deal with her.
Have you asked any foreigners about their care in Japan? Dannychoo.com grew up in the UK,which has legendary shittyness in its national service. Ask him about how he likes Japanese care.
Japan's medical system is much, much worse off than the USAs.
Or here's a nice practical example of healthcare in Germany: When i was there, drugstores were closed sunday after dinner time. Hope you don't get sick on a sunday!
The current bill is going to change MY insurance. How can you say it's not going to really change anything? My current policy and compensation package at work is either going to change dramatically or my company is going to be spending a fuck ton of extra money, which is going to change somebody's employment.
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Chuck likes these kind of threads just so he can get his post count up......errr um wait.
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you take the wall with you -
Trafik Jamz;303998 wrote:
The real health cost problem is 4 part.-
We pay WAAAAAAAAAAAY more for medication in this country than even Canada. The same drug, in the same dosage, in the same package may be 2 to 3 times more expensive here. Yay capitalism, way to keep those costs down.
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People self-prescribe medication essentially. They tell the Dr what is wrong and they just write whatever prescription you want. Trust me, every time I get an ear infection, I get Vicoden. In this country nothing is ever done to figure out what is causing the problem, we just treat the symptoms. No money in cures.
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This ties directly to #2, but drug companies should not be able to advertise prescription drugs to the public. I don't need to know about every new miracle drug. That is why my Dr. went to med school and why pharmaceuticals hire reps.
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It's too easy to sue. If you intentionally fuck someone up on the operating table, sure you should be liable. But if a minor mistake is made, you should not be able to sue for millions.
talk to your doctor today about propecia?
i think the day wrestless leg was invented the heath care crisis started.
the problem also stems to the power struggle between doctors and nurses. nurses are earning certifications to perform MANY of the jobs doctors performed. the doctors are losing procedures and money... you fill in the blank.
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Trafik Jamz;304004 wrote:
In all honesty, I'm willing to bet if you looked at the bill, it is 75% what the republicans have asked for and probably less than 50% of what the far left democrats wanted in the beginning..
Sort of a random assumption wouldn't you say??
read the 2500+ pages first then get back to us on that
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.and really now.... you really think this is it?? It is only the beginning...... a public option and much more will be coming don't kid yourself
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Is anyone aware of something Boehner said in the last few days? Do some searching, but he asked (I don't remember which voting it was) why there were so many new IRS agents being hired... but no more medical professionals. Seriously, if many hospitals are short-staffed, how are they going to handle MORE patients?
It's time for the Atlas of the medicine industry to shrug, we need to see nurses and physicians strike because they're tired of living under the yoke of slave-labor with high pay (it doesn't matter how much money you have if you never have any time to use it).
There aren't enough physicians and capable nurses in this country because we've been pushed to lean on the government for everything. Because we've been so weakened (as a country), we don't have the ability to produce the kinds of numbers of specialists that are needed to support this change.
If I were better able to sell my services as a painter, I would pull myself out of the system as fast as possible.
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out there;304064 wrote:
Is anyone aware of something Boehner said in the last few days? Do some searching, but he asked (I don't remember which voting it was) why there were so many new IRS agents being hired... but no more medical professionals. Seriously, if many hospitals are short-staffed, how are they going to handle MORE patients?It's time for the Atlas of the medicine industry to shrug, we need to see nurses and physicians strike because they're tired of living under the yoke of slave-labor with high pay (it doesn't matter how much money you have if you never have any time to use it).
There aren't enough physicians and capable nurses in this country because we've been pushed to lean on the government for everything. Because we've been so weakened (as a country), we don't have the ability to produce the kinds of numbers of specialists that are needed to support this change.
If I were better able to sell my services as a painter, I would pull myself out of the system as fast as possible.
think positive. tell yourself it sounds like job creation?
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out there;304064 wrote:
Is anyone aware of something Boehner said in the last few days? Do some searching, but he asked (I don't remember which voting it was) why there were so many new IRS agents being hired... but no more medical professionals. Seriously, if many hospitals are short-staffed, how are they going to handle MORE patients?Can't answer the first one about IRS agents, but I can tell you that the AMA restricts the number of students who can go on to get the doctorate in medicine. IOW only a small percentage of those who go to school for pre-med get into med school at the choosing of the AMA. In that case, the Dr's only have themselves to blame for the shortage.
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If you have employer supplied health insurance and the business is smaller than 30 employees you might be ok. If the business has over 30 employees you should cross your fingers that the employer will suck it up and absorb the extra costs and not lessen your plan or pass the extra cost on to you.
Rexwagon;303960 wrote:
So wtf does this mean if you already have a good health insurance plan?DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
First...it's 50 employees. 2nd the costs of insurance may go up due to the pre-existing conditions clauses and the fact that you won't be able to be dropped from health insurance because you are no longer healthy (that is the part that always killed me about insurance...you buy it for when you get sick, but when you do get sick enough they kick you out....That would be like saying you are going to lose your auto insurance because a drunk driver hit you) but there is an equal possibility that they would go down as the creation of health exchanges should (as was proposed/promoted by the republicans early in this process) breed competition within states making insurance plans more competitively priced. Add to that the number of younger/healthier Americans who will be entering the system and the risk pool should tilt more towards healthy. This should help bring the cost of insurance down as well. My bet is that it remains the same after all the pro's and con's to the cost of insurance.
The biggest problem with the bill is the same thing that is wrong with the healthcare industry in general: It is treating the symptoms (high insurance premiums) and not the causes (inefficiencies in hospital billing/crazy high malpractice insurance/over-medication or over-testing/drug costs here vs everywhere else in the world/etc....)
Until we get those other things under control, health insurance costs will never go down in a significant way.
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thrash;304008 wrote:
If you read Japanprobe and other english-language sources, you won't get such a rosy picture of hospital care in Japan. I remember a couple of stories about people are dying because hospitals are turning them away. Why? Because they don't feel they could do the procedure. What was the procedure? Childbirth. They put one woman in an ambulance and kept sending her from place to place; nobody wanted to deal with her.Have you asked any foreigners about their care in Japan? Dannychoo.com grew up in the UK,which has legendary shittyness in its national service. Ask him about how he likes Japanese care.
Japan's medical system is much, much worse off than the USAs.
Or here's a nice practical example of healthcare in Germany: When i was there, drugstores were closed sunday after dinner time. Hope you don't get sick on a sunday!
The current bill is going to change MY insurance. How can you say it's not going to really change anything? My current policy and compensation package at work is either going to change dramatically or my company is going to be spending a fuck ton of extra money, which is going to change somebody's employment.
I based Japans healthcare based on friends that I have who live there (and who have had kids there...and no, not at a military base). Same with the German health system.
Assuming your plan is BCBS (you work at Microsoft, right?) the two things I see potentially increasing your cost of insurance are "Pre-existing conditions will now be covered" and "No lifetime caps on benefits".
Since you are on an employer sponsored plan already, the pre-existing clause won't affect you a whole lot as MOST employer sponsored plans allow people with a condition such as diabetes into their plan anyway. I know of some that allow people with cancer into them. So there will be a marginal cost.
The caps on benefits will likely have a larger impact on what you pay, but that could/should be reduced by the requirement of everyone to have insurance. There will be more younger/healthier people paying in to insurance policies, in effect they are expected to be the equalizer for the caps on benefits.
Is it perfect? No. Is the world coming to an end because of it? Again, no.
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The bill has financial penalties for any business that continues to offer "awesome" plans. The fine/fee schedule was delayed a bit, and do not apply to union members. But everyone at a Fortune 500 company with "really good" benefits is going to be negatively impacted.
Most F500 companies self-insure. You aren't in their risk pool unless you work there. These people are getting the shaft from this bill, because it dumps huge financial penalties on their employers if they don't lessen the benefits provided to their employees.
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Trafik Jamz;304076 wrote:
Assuming your plan is BCBS (you work at Microsoft, right?) the two things I see potentially increasing your cost of insurance are "Pre-existing conditions will now be covered" and "No lifetime caps on benefits".You are wrong about everything. MS self-insures. So do most F500 companies. Health admin and re-insurance of last resort is provided by somebody or other..
Since you are on an employer sponsored plan already, the pre-existing clause won't affect you a whole lot as MOST employer sponsored plans allow people with a condition such as diabetes into their plan anyway. I know of some that allow people with cancer into them. So there will be a marginal cost.
A feature of my employer's plan [and most employer plans at big companies] is that there is no entry screening and no possibility of having coverage denied.
The cost increase will be due to the specific penalties assessed against companies that have high-benefit plans like Microsoft.
The caps on benefits will likely have a larger impact on what you pay, but that could/should be reduced by the requirement of everyone to have insurance. There will be more younger/healthier people paying in to insurance policies, in effect they are expected to be the equalizer for the caps on benefits.
That has nothing to do with it. The # of people paying into the MS plan remains the same: zero. The cost to MS of providing those benefits goes up tremendously because the bill penalizes MS for providing it.
Is it perfect? No. Is the world coming to an end because of it? Again, no.
It's far from perfect. It's a direct attack on my current compensation package that provides me with no benefits what soever. Like most modern government, it's the shitty steeling from the producing class to pander to the dependant voting class.
You don't know what the bill says or does. Unless you're asking questions, stop talking.
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Yes, those with "Cadillac Plans" may be subject to an excise tax based on several different criteria. Even though they are self insured, it is still administered by a major medical company. The underwriting is still based on the law of averages within the whole insured population (not just those within the company), however since MOST people who work for a F500 company already have coverage, they have already seen the advantages of a lower cost policy (relative to what you receive for benefits). Yes, your plan may well go up in price due to excise taxes. I don't like it either.
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thrash;304078 wrote:
You are wrong about everything. MS self-insures. So do most F500 companies. Health admin and re-insurance of last resort is provided by somebody or other..I addressed this in the next paragraph/my next post
A feature of my employer's plan [and most employer plans at big companies] is that there is no entry screening and no possibility of having coverage denied.
I've worked for Tyco, there is no entry screening, you are right, but they do not cover things such as pregnancy if you were pregnant prior to coming to work for them. They also don't cover someone who has cancer, even if they had coverage from a previous employer and no lapse in coverage.
The cost increase will be due to the specific penalties assessed against companies that have high-benefit plans like Microsoft.
I agree with you, I don't agree with the penalties/taxes.
That has nothing to do with it. The # of people paying into the MS plan remains the same: zero. The cost to MS of providing those benefits goes up tremendously because the bill penalizes MS for providing it.
I don't have the numbers on how much they will be penalized/taxed. If you do, I'd love to see them.
It's far from perfect. It's a direct attack on my current compensation package that provides me with no benefits what soever. Like most modern government, it's the shitty steeling from the producing class to pander to the dependant voting class.
You don't know what the bill says or does. Unless you're asking questions, stop talking.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I stated clearly that I didn't like it, but I am informed enough to talk about both the positives and negatives of the HCR. I don't know everything about it, but I do enjoy talking about it from both sides. And yes, I threw out some generalized statements regarding the affect of the bill (and I completely forgot about self insurance in my first response to you....I apologize).
Do you have a link that explains the tax/penalties of self-insured companies plans?
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Trafik Jamz;304072 wrote:
Can't answer the first one about IRS agents, but I can tell you that the AMA restricts the number of students who can go on to get the doctorate in medicine. IOW only a small percentage of those who go to school for pre-med get into med school at the choosing of the AMA. In that case, the Dr's only have themselves to blame for the shortage.AMA = basically a union. Good ol unions at work again to screw everyone else over.
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In a nut shell, yes, in thrash's case his plan will likely take a hit. I should have thought more about self-insured companies before I threw out my blanket statement. Keep in mind (again) that my views on if this was good/bad legislation leans towards bad. I think it could have been done better and w/o taxing/penalizing the "cadillac" plans.
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StangerBanger96;304084 wrote:
AMA = basically a union. Good ol unions at work again to screw everyone else over.Not going to disagree on this for the most part. Though someone asked WHY there weren't enough Doctors, I gave the answer. It's because THEY (or their board/union) limits the amount that can go on to med school. So they did it to themselves. Can't blame anyone other than the AMA and the Doctors in it for that.
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Sorry I got a bit testy.
The bill is going to negatively impact a lot of people, me included. The details of exactly how haven't been worked out yet. I'm actually writing a mail to our HR people asking what their timeframe is for announcing how this is going to affect US employees. THey probably haven't worked that out yet fully. Part of it is figuring out in precise detail what the final bill says and when that comes into full force [different parts happen at different times], and how my company will decide to respond.
In broad strokes, the bill says that I don't get to keep my current insurance without someone [either me or my employer] paying a big penalty. Neither me nor my employer are going to be thrilled to pay, and irrespective of which party pays some or all of it, that means less money to do other things, and some attendant financial adjustments.
The bill also says that part of the funding for the new benefits being given to other people will come from a new tax on my investment activity. Capital gains will now be subject to medicare taxes, and the effective cap gains rates will be going up.
My company compenstates me in a variety of ways: fantastic medical benefits being one of them, and issuance of company stock in a variety of ways being several more. All of this is going to change for the worse as a result of the health care bill.
My salary doesn't put me in the "250k" range (or is it "200k" now?) or whatever Obama was promising would be the starting line for "Sticking it to the rich", and just like i told you leading up the election, I'm going to get fucked by this even though i make nowhere near that much.
And just like I told you 2 year ago, his anti-investment mentality is one place I'll probably feel it most.
I've been contributing to my company stock purchase plan and receiving other stock based assets, and holding my positions in the stock market since I entered the full-time workforce over 10 years ago. As the tax rules change for the wose, I'm going to need to re-evaluate that.
This bill sucks. It doesn't give Obama supporters what they wanted, Obama has reneged on every promise he made about taxes and health care and openness to get this bill to happen, and it certainly doesn't benefit ME at all. The most likely outcome is that it materially damages me to the tune of thousands of dollars a year.
How can I be happy about that? No, thousands of dollars of my money simply evaporating hopefully isn't the end of the world for me, but it might be for some people. Hopefully it is the end of the world for Obama and the congress that passed this horseshit.
The unresolved abortion situation is going to need some more light shed on it. I told my wife the bill passed and all she asked about was if it provided for abortion funding. My wife told me she was willing to become a tax protester over the abortion issue. She generally isn't onboard with me becoming a radical but for that issue, she is. It remains to be seen how that pans out, but the bill doesnt' have the Hyde or Stupak language in it. To get anti-abortion guarantees, they're depending on Obama to sign an EO that somehow limits it. Obama is the most pro-Abortion president we've ever had, based on his previous voting history, and any EO can be overturned at any time by this or any future president. So it's looking pretty marginal at this point.
I know a fair number of people at work who are pretty fucking irate over this. Consider what that means. These are high earners with families and mortgages and kids and everything to lose, honestly. And they're starting to talk in the same language that I am. They're pissed off at the government. They want OUT of the federal machine. They DONT like what is happening.
What do you think is going to happen if this reaches a boil? When affluent conservatives and libertarians decide to revolt, do you think they're going to light dumpsters on fire? Or throw bricks through store windows?
I don't think this problem is something an election or a repeal can fix. The red/blue schism in this country is coming to a head and I know which side is better armed and I know how the professional armed forces vote in elections.
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