Universal Health care: What does it mean for us a citizens?
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capitlj;304290 wrote:
On the AMA issue, yes there is a gray area in tems of demand for doctors vs. quality of the doctors. However there is a need for that type of thing otherwise
someone with palsey could try to be a surgeon,Yeah, luckily there is no such thing as medical malpractice now. err wait.
When a group of professionals get together and start working to better the future of their chosen field
I think this is a great thing for people to do.
Where we part ways is that invariably these "professionals" work together to make occupational licensure a mandatory thing backed by the power of government. Remember, the government gets to shoot you if you decide you want to do a little plumbing on the side and they say differently.
be it doctors or lawyers or electricians, you kind of have to expect they know what they are talking about.
Nobody ever disputes that doctors are probably very well qualified to judge other doctors. But fewer readily admit the obvious conflict of interest.
Maybe they just have me fooled.
They do.
There is no reason to make it ILLEGAL to go see a doctor the AMA doesn't like, unless the AMA is trying to protect its wages.
You, personally, could decide that you'll only get treated by AMA doctors; your insurance could say that they will only re-imburse you for AMA providers; your primary physician may only write recommendations to other AMA physicians.
There can be any number of free-market mechanisms that "the people", both individually and aggregately, use to decide who is going to make a successful living at being a doctor.
Government licensure and certification is responsible for a lot of bad things. Private alternatives are better, and where they exist, are very successful.
The following are all private organizations that consumers turn to to figure out if something is "safe" or not:
- Consumer Reports
- IIHS.org
- Better HouseKeeping
- Better Busines Bureau
- CarFax
- Underwriters Laboritories
Those are a few. This forum is a form of consumer protection: everyone here is asking and answering questions about reliability, about if someone is a good seller, about people who take money and don't deliver parts, etc. I learned from this forum that certain people probably aren't going to build me a manifold in a reasonable timeframe.
You can read "Free to Choose", by Milton Friedman, to get a better argument for the inherent evil of occupational licensure. He's a smart guy -- Nobel prize winner, inventor of the modern IRS, economic advisor to Nixon and Reagan, turned the economy of a few south american countries around, did weapons testing for Uncle Sam in WW2.
I'll lend you the book if you like.
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One of the often overlooked "Pro's" to this healthcare bill is that Rush Limbaugh has stated that if it passes and everything is implemented he will move out of the country in 5 years and move to Costa Rica.....and you guys thought there was nothing good in this bill.....
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thrash;304349 wrote:
Yeah, luckily there is no such thing as medical malpractice now. err wait.
Of course there is and always will be, they are human after all. Mistakes will be made and some will be just plain bad people but you can't judge an organization on the actions of certain individuals. Well actually you can but that's not exactly fair.
I forgot to mention that I agree with you completely on the fact that one organization and the government should not control any industry. However you if there were no controls malpractice would be a far more common issue. But if the organization is an advisory kind of thing, ASE for example, that might be better suited. I was trying to say something along those lines but my fingers get real sore typing on my blackberry, so I don't elaborate as much as I normally would. Also I might check that book out, not my usual type of read I like Tom Clancy and Robert Ludlum, but I need something to do while I'm on the throne.Chuck you really think that'll stop Rush from talking.
> Mitch Hedberg wrote:
> I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just going to find out where they are going and hook up with them later.ASE certified parts specialist.
2004 Impala LS 3.8 -
the total for defense spending in 2010 is between $880 billion and $1.03 trillion? thats about 40% of all tax revenue? is this true? i heard this today on the radio at a gas station.
if it is about right, why doesnt everyone who is not in favor of paying more for health care just ask that two soldiers are sent home instead. they dont even have to be from the stans they could be from one of the other thirty countries we have armed forces in.
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I'd be all for evalutating if our military is too spread out and if they are bringing some home.
BUT, that does not mean I want the government to spend more money on this health insurance fiasco. How about we save money by bringing troops back AND not doing this health insurance BS?
24valvenotak;304398 wrote:
the total for defense spending in 2010 is between $880 billion and $1.03 trillion? thats about 40% of all tax revenue? is this true? i heard this today on the radio at a gas station.if it is about right, why doesnt everyone who is not in favor of paying more for health care just ask that two soldiers are sent home instead. they dont even have to be from the stans they could be from one of the other thirty countries we have armed forces in.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
Strong Military > Poor People with Healthcare
I tend to lean to the authoritarian side though.
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I heard some weenie on the radio yesterday morning. Essentially, he was saying that "individualism is the way of the past, the future is the community". Wow, I could just hear the "I'm so pathetic I can't even look at myself in the mirror" dripping from his voice.
What is happening to people? What happened to the "Yes, I can do that!" spirit that made this country the best industrialized nation? What happened to the country that was the first to reach the moon? What happened to the country that was the first to harness atomic power? Jefferson was right, the biggest threat to this nation isn't someone trying to conquer it, it's from inside.
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out there;304407 wrote:
I heard some weenie on the radio yesterday morning. Essentially, he was saying that "individualism is the way of the past, the future is the community". Wow, I could just hear the "I'm so pathetic I can't even look at myself in the mirror" dripping from his voice.What is happening to people? What happened to the "Yes, I can do that!" spirit that made this country the best industrialized nation? What happened to the country that was the first to reach the moon? What happened to the country that was the first to harness atomic power? Jefferson was right, the biggest threat to this nation isn't someone trying to conquer it, it's from inside.
Ayn Rand is someone that really gets to the meat of the issues you're asking about, but she's very wordy and philosophical. Not a lot of people can read her books. I'm not clever enough to distill what she says into something short, and most people go "tl;dr" on my posts already
The reason many Americans feel like shit is because that makes them easier to control. It's not an accident.
A man with no idealism has no aspirations. A man with no aspirations has no motivations of his own. Once a man has no motivation and cannot move under his own power, he needs someone else to tell him what to do and how to think.
The key then, is destroy his ideas. To destroy his heroes. To destroy everything and everywhere he sees virtue.
There are forces at work in our culture and our society that actively work to destroy everything worth loving so that man loses his capacity to care.
But this can be hard to do; it is sometimes much easier to glorify mediocrity than to tear down excellence.
As you think about the people you see in the news, the things you read in magazines, the policies enacted by our government, the court decisions made in our courts... ask yourself:
"Does that make an example of the best humanity has to offer? Or does that celebrate and reward vileness... mediocrity...failure... injustice"
Ask yourself.. "is this a good man who they are trying to destroy? Why?"
Who are your hereos today? Are there any? Who did you look up to 5 or 10 years ago? How has the popular culture treated them since then? Are they still your heroes?
I trot out a lot of books on here that I've read and found interesting and helpful. My policy is that I will lend a copy of any book I've mentioned to anyone on FS that asks for it.
I suffer from the same malaise as some of you: I think our country is dying, that I am powerless to stop it, that many of our neighbors are complicit in its destruction, and that there is no hope of a positive outcome.
I beleive that there will be a confrontation between people who want to be free again and people who want to enslave their neighbors. I don't know what kind of confrontation it will be... will it be a few people getting murdered on TV, like Waco or Ruby Ridge, or will it be a lot of people against a lot of people, like a 2nd American Revolutionary war or a 2nd Civil War.
Or maybe, somehow, beyond all hope, "they" will just let "us" go, and people who oppose the continued democratization and socialization of their lives will be permitted to live as relatively free men, as was the design of this Nation's founders.
The reading I have done has made me very skeptical that "they" will ever let "us" go. We build their buildings, design their bridges, fight their wars, grow their food. They need us; we don't need anyone.
As much posting as I do here and as long as all of my posts are, I imagine that I do a horrible job of explaining and defending the principles of freedom to people who may not have studied them much. So I encourage anyone who is interested to please consult the source material -- don't assume I'm giving it a fair shake, if you read my posts and think "what a loon" or "what an idiot", don't take my word for it -- read it from the experts' mouths.
A damn shame is that most of the books i talk about aren't available at the Fargo public library. Why is that? Why can't you find books on free-market economics or the philosophy of political freedom at a state-supported library? There are thousands of volumes of japanese comic books translated into english. But nothing on the nature of man's freedom? In a "Free" country no less?
Here's a quick and dirty crack at the "thrash freedom-lovers reading list" (check at the library online, or ask me via PM to borrow a copy):
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" - Robert A. Heinlien, science fiction
"Molon Labe" - Kenneth Royce, fiction
"Atlas Shrugged" - Ayn Rand, fiction
"Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal" - Ayn Rand, non-fiction
"Free to Choose" - Milton Friedman, non-fiction
"Capitalism and Freedom" - Milton Friedman, non-fiction -
integra_gsr98;304404 wrote:
Strong Military > Poor People with HealthcareI tend to lean to the authoritarian side though.
I agree 100%, but I don't have any problem re-evaluating where the troops are and bringing some home if it makes sense.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
So none of the legislators even read the "healthcare bill" close enough to see that it didn't actually remove the "pre-existing condition" clause for kids until 2014?
What a joke, I bet 90% of the people who voted "yes" on the bill have no idea whats actually in it.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jYnajhWrPEXihcCrpRNfUKN7rN-AD9EKTKIG0
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;304418 wrote:
I agree 100%, but I don't have any problem re-evaluating where the troops are and bringing some home if it makes sense.Don't get me wrong I'm all for getting them out of places as soon as it's possible. What I'm not a fan of though is the inevitable 'demilitarization' that will be caused by liberals in charge if we're not fighting a war.
Reagan did it right by building up the military after the Carter administration. A strong military is necessary even in times of peace.
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thrash;304414 wrote:
Ayn Rand is someone that really gets to the meat of the issues you're asking about, but she's very wordy and philosophical. Not a lot of people can read her books. I'm not clever enough to distill what she says into something short, and most people go "tl;dr" on my posts alreadyThe reason many Americans feel like shit is because that makes them easier to control. It's not an accident.
A man with no idealism has no aspirations. A man with no aspirations has no motivations of his own. Once a man has no motivation and cannot move under his own power, he needs someone else to tell him what to do and how to think.
The key then, is destroy his ideas. To destroy his heroes. To destroy everything and everywhere he sees virtue.
There are forces at work in our culture and our society that actively work to destroy everything worth loving so that man loses his capacity to care.
But this can be hard to do; it is sometimes much easier to glorify mediocrity than to tear down excellence.
As you think about the people you see in the news, the things you read in magazines, the policies enacted by our government, the court decisions made in our courts... ask yourself:
"Does that make an example of the best humanity has to offer? Or does that celebrate and reward vileness... mediocrity...failure... injustice"
Ask yourself.. "is this a good man who they are trying to destroy? Why?"
Who are your hereos today? Are there any? Who did you look up to 5 or 10 years ago? How has the popular culture treated them since then? Are they still your heroes?
I trot out a lot of books on here that I've read and found interesting and helpful. My policy is that I will lend a copy of any book I've mentioned to anyone on FS that asks for it.
I suffer from the same malaise as some of you: I think our country is dying, that I am powerless to stop it, that many of our neighbors are complicit in its destruction, and that there is no hope of a positive outcome.
I beleive that there will be a confrontation between people who want to be free again and people who want to enslave their neighbors. I don't know what kind of confrontation it will be... will it be a few people getting murdered on TV, like Waco or Ruby Ridge, or will it be a lot of people against a lot of people, like a 2nd American Revolutionary war or a 2nd Civil War.
Or maybe, somehow, beyond all hope, "they" will just let "us" go, and people who oppose the continued democratization and socialization of their lives will be permitted to live as relatively free men, as was the design of this Nation's founders.
The reading I have done has made me very skeptical that "they" will ever let "us" go. We build their buildings, design their bridges, fight their wars, grow their food. They need us; we don't need anyone.
As much posting as I do here and as long as all of my posts are, I imagine that I do a horrible job of explaining and defending the principles of freedom to people who may not have studied them much. So I encourage anyone who is interested to please consult the source material -- don't assume I'm giving it a fair shake, if you read my posts and think "what a loon" or "what an idiot", don't take my word for it -- read it from the experts' mouths.
A damn shame is that most of the books i talk about aren't available at the Fargo public library. Why is that? Why can't you find books on free-market economics or the philosophy of political freedom at a state-supported library? There are thousands of volumes of japanese comic books translated into english. But nothing on the nature of man's freedom? In a "Free" country no less?
Here's a quick and dirty crack at the "thrash freedom-lovers reading list" (check at the library online, or ask me via PM to borrow a copy):
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" - Robert A. Heinlien, science fiction
"Molon Labe" - Kenneth Royce, fiction
"Atlas Shrugged" - Ayn Rand, fiction
"Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal" - Ayn Rand, non-fiction
"Free to Choose" - Milton Friedman, non-fiction
"Capitalism and Freedom" - Milton Friedman, non-fiction
/salute
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integra_gsr98;304421 wrote:
Don't get me wrong I'm all for getting them out of places as soon as it's possible. What I'm not a fan of though is the inevitable 'demilitarization' that will be caused by liberals in charge if we're not fighting a war.Reagan did it right by building up the military after the Carter administration. A strong military is necessary even in times of peace.
stationed around the world is a poor choice. would we let france have a base in montana? no.
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I just got done having this chat with someone else.
The only way out of this, even for a "say no to everything" fiscal conservative [of which there aren't any, except Ron Paul], is to cut military spending.
We can't lower taxes first. We have to cut spending first. But what spending? What will people actually say "yes" to, and what is big enough to make a difference?
The war budget.
Ron Paul has said from day one that while he wants to shrink the government, cut welfare, cut education, cut the CIA, cut every thing that isn't strictly authorized by the federal government...
what is he going to do first ? What can you cut that won't cripple and shock Americans? What can you cut that lots of americans are actually in favor of cutting?
The war budget.
So on day one, he'd start bringing troops home from everywhere -- not just our two foreign theaters of operation, but from the bases we have all over the world.
The best way for those people to be able to protect Americans from invasion is for them to be back here, and for the government to have enough money to BUY THEM SUPPLIES.
No other republican will actually be straight with you on what spending they'd cut. That's because there is nothing else people can cut right now. The ONLY thing that people will let get cut is defense spending.
The thing Clinton did wrong is that he reduced our projection and intelligence capacities, but not our "commitment" to helicopter into every podunk shithole all over the world. Ron Paul has no such illusions.
So Ron Paul is the only person that actually has a specific and plausible plan for what spending he'd cut and how he'd do it. And what is his reward from republicans?
"Wanting to bring the troops home makes him a pussy" [he enlisted and SERVED you fat lying fucks, and he had a larger share of the vote from DEPLOYED TROOPS than anyone else, including the "War Vet" McCain. So STFU]
"He's a loon" [and how many monetary policy books have YOU published?]
"I like him, except for his foreign policy" [if you had voted for any of his DOMESTIC policies we wouldn't be in this mess, assholes]Nobody -- and i mean nobody -- has an answer to the basic question of "how are we going to give American any chance of being a viable country in 20 years", except Ron Paul. And his plan is this "we've got to cut spending and services fast, hard, and brutally, and here's where we have to start, because that will have the biggest savings with the lowest domestic impact".
Nobody else has a plausible plan.
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Thrash, I have waded through Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and a couple collections of essays, so I'm familiar with Rand's flare with words. I haven't read Milton Friedman, but I will start to explore some of his works. I also haven't read enough of Heinlein, so he's still on my "to read" list. I support your making available the books that people need to read, but there exists a problem with people just reading: they don't understand.
When I loan books to people, when I recommend that someone read something, I ask them questions about it. I try to foster discussion of the premises to ensure that their brains grasp the roots of what they read. Reading doesn't do anything, it's understanding that is needed. The only place where everyone stands a chance at victory is the field of education. Nobody wins without discourse and debate.
I think the ideas that Ron Paul discusses are excellent, well-organized, and what we need... but he gets labeled "lunatic" because he speaks about the practical application of our resources, not the touchy-feely, superstitious babbling that the country expects. Stalin was a genius because he tried to kill religion, he was stupid because he also tried to kill the aspirations of his people. What none of the leaders through history have understood is that people only use religion as a crutch when they feel that they aren't capable on their own. The only true way to kill religion is to prove to men that the only "god" image they need in their minds is that of a human being with "rationality, self-esteem, and purpose".
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Actually....it doesn't exempt them. Common myth.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/28thamendment.asp
and for further proof: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3962eh.txt.pdf look at line 22 of page 114. Doesn't mention anything about excluding coverage to anyone.
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