Illegal Immigration
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I'm glad we spent all those lives and all that money trying to defeat the Soviet Union... only so that in 2010 American cops could stop anyone they wanted and ask "papers please".
There's a very easy way to fix the immigration problem. Remove the incentives for people to come here.
What are the incentives?
- free housing
- free education
- jobs
- free ER treatment
- lucrative drug market
- complete lack of enforcement of border security
Just because something is legal or illegal has no bearing on whether or not it is right. Slavery was legal, then one day it wasn't. It was wrong the whole time, but the law is just whatever the law is.
The US had open borders for much of its history. Take a tour of Ellis Island some time.
I don't dispute that there is a problem. But the approaches being suggested [asking everyone for papers, building a giant fence, building a giant kill-zone]... i mean were you guys paying attention in world history class? Do you think that the government told east berliners that the wall was to keep them IN while they were building it? "Oh fuck! Now that we're trapped inside this place by the goddamn army, I guess we should have thought harder about what they were doing to keep out those evil Westerners!"
Also, Jim is right regarding constitutional protections. These are the rights of human beings. In the US, we wrote them down and decided that the whole point of our government was to protect these human rights. The right to vote is not in the bill of rights. The right to think and say what you like about politicians IS. Anyone standing on US soil has the 1st amendment.
[oddly enough, non-citizens do NOT have 2A rights in the US. The 2A gets the shaft in a lot of ways]
There is certainly a problem with immigration right now. The problem is that the incentives and the law are completely fucking wrong. I work with a number of genius superstar software engineers that would LOVE to be full US citizens. They pay full US taxes, they make more than just about all of you combined [and thus they do a hell of a lot more for you than you do for them, tax wise]. They don't get to vote, their wives get held up at airports, they cannot leave the country to visit family without weeks of paperwork.
We are LOSING top talent people because the US immigration laws are such ridiculous absurd bullshit. Do you understand that people are staying in China -- CHINA -- because China's "we torture you in the balls" bullshit communist party seems like less of a hassle to some people now? That's embarassing.
We make it as hard as possible for people who want to work hard and be real Americans to do so. Because we are stupid. And we make it trivially easy for people who want to mooch and break our laws to do so. Because they are a reliable block of voters [and future voters]. The amount of voter fraud by immigrants for the democratic ticket is pretty legendary, and the progressive wing is fully invested in having a permenant dependant class of voters. Also, the minimum wage and labor protection laws have made hiring someone in America almost impossible. The progressives REFUSE to deal with economic reality: their economic policies have destroyed the US economy and low-end jobs. Yet the economy must function, and this labor must come from somewhere.
And so the dems cannot stop the tide of illegal immigrants because they need the cheap labor that they made illegal, and they want a permanant underclass who will vote for them indefinitely.
The only solution, is to remove the bad incentives. It's not an issue of whether mexican immigrants are good or bad people. They are reasonable people making a reasonable choice, given the incentives. Remove the bad incentives:
- remove the minimum wage and other protection laws that make it impossible to hire Americans into low-wage positions
- remove the "must-treat" rules at ERs, so that people can be turned away at the providers discretion
- remove birth-right citizenship for all people. Native-born Americans have just as much lazy-lard-ass entitlement as some of the immigrants do
- remove housing assistance, education, scholarships, etc for all non-citizens (remove it for everybody, eventually)
- repeal drug laws that finance much of the organized crime
- untie the hands of the border patrol and private land owners on the border.
- authorize shoot-on-sight prosecutorial immunity for private land owners in high-crime / high border-crossing areas
Basically, i want all of the people I can get as long as they are willing to work instead of mooch. We cannot make people work, but we can keep them from mooching.
If people want to come gushing across the border to work their ass off, and to be net contributors -- let them.
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Jim;310173 wrote:
Except for the part where they can pull / stop anybody who they suspect to be an illegal over.Correct me if I am wrong because I honestly don't know the intricate details of the law. But, I was under the impression that "thinking a person is illegal" is not a primary offense? IE: You cannot be pulled over just because a cop thinks you are an illegal immigrant. Now, once you've been pulled over, your ID will get checked regardless.
If it is expanding powers to cops to question you for no reason other than your appearance then I can see why people are upset...that's obviously going way too far and would be grounds for a revocation of the law or at least re-writing of it.
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Jim;310094 wrote:
I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but this email has alot wrong with it.1 - A JOB,
yup
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
Nope
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
Nope
4 - WELFARE,
Nope
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
Nope
6 - CREDIT CARDS
Nope
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
Nope
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
Nope
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
How so? Do we get free health care? Are you talking ER rooms?
10- A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
Nope
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
Are you fucking kidding me? You do realize we don't have an official national language.
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT
? 1st amendment?nice
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You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.
StangerBanger96;310216 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong because I honestly don't know the intricate details of the law. But, I was under the impression that "thinking a person is illegal" is not a primary offense? IE: You cannot be pulled over just because a cop thinks you are an illegal immigrant. Now, once you've been pulled over, your ID will get checked regardless.If it is expanding powers to cops to question you for no reason other than your appearance then I can see why people are upset...that's obviously going way too far and would be grounds for a revocation of the law or at least re-writing of it.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;310236 wrote:
You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.Exactly...Kind of like getting a seatbelt ticket when you weren't able to be pulled over for it alone.
How stupid do people think these cops are down in AZ? Honestly, you trust them with a gun, your safety, your life, but can't trust them to use good judgement in regards to reasonably suspecting somebody being an illegal alien.
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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thrash;310220 wrote:
Do you carry your birth certificate with you in the car? No?How about next time you get pulled over, you get thrown in jail for 8 hours until someone finds you one?
no I am white, wont happen.
Ppl keep refering back to when alot of the original ppl emigrated here. But that was then, America wanted Immigrants. They needed ppl to build a country and to work in it. Now We are full, we have enough. Shut down the borders
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Bp-08;310241 wrote:
I carry my drivers license with me......x2....
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DaveH;310236 wrote:
You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.No police officer ever stops a car for a BS reason just to get them for something else? I remember quite a few threads on here and other places of people getting pulled over to check tint or loud exhaust and then get a ticket for no seatbelt.
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amicheze;310246 wrote:
No police officer ever stops a car for a BS reason just to get them for something else? I remember quite a few threads on here and other places of people getting pulled over to check tint or loud exhaust and then get a ticket for no seatbelt.seen this happen many times
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torbs;310239 wrote:
Honestly, you trust them with a gun, your safety, your life,I personally don't. I'd call them if I needed them, but wouldn't rely on them being there RIGHT when I "needed" them or even relatively close to when I "needed" them.
As for the whole "What if you don't carry your birth certificate with you" thing. Laws require Immigrants to HAVE AT ALL TIMES the proof that they are in this country legally. If you are pulled over, asked to present ID, and you present your Drivers License/Green Card/Whatever, you're good to go.
If the law is already in place that they are required to have proof of being here at all times, it really isn't a burden to pull out ID that you are required by law to have. Are there ways around this? Of course, if nobody knows you're an immigrant and you don't have ID, you could just get a fake name and hope it comes up in the system, and that you know the information for the person whose identity you took.
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It's possible. If the police did that, it would be against the law the way it is written.
amicheze;310246 wrote:
No police officer ever stops a car for a BS reason just to get them for something else? I remember quite a few threads on here and other places of people getting pulled over to check tint or loud exhaust and then get a ticket for no seatbelt.DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
amicheze;310246 wrote:
No police officer ever stops a car for a BS reason just to get them for something else? I remember quite a few threads on here and other places of people getting pulled over to check tint or loud exhaust and then get a ticket for no seatbelt.If you can prove a cop screwed you, anything after that point is void. If you have tint and get pulled over, thats your fault ONLY, especially if you get a seat belt ticket. I give the police a lot of hate, but your example is not a reason I'd hate if tint IS a primary offense. You know the laws, be prepared.
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Bp-08;310241 wrote:
I carry my drivers license with me......Which doesn't mean jack shit since there are tons of illegals with drivers licenses.
Were you required to show your birth certificate to get your license? You certainly aren't in many states.
I didn't say "ID". I said birth certificate. AZ will not consider your ND drivers license as valid if they don't think the ND licensing process does sufficient due dilligence to show legal resident status before issuing a license.
They have already thrown a US Citizen in jail in AZ.. a trucker who had a DL/CDL from a state they didn't "trust" to do good enough background checks.
His wife had to go and dig up his real birth certificate before they would let this guy out of jail. For what? For being guilty of being brown?
AZ [and the USA in general] is in a bad situation; intelligent people don't deny that. But this cure may be worse than the poison. There are certainly better ways of dealing with the issue than requiring all Americans to be able to hand over birth records at any time. Thats some soviet union bullshit right there.
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thrash;310280 wrote:
. There are certainly better ways of dealing with the issue than requiring all Americans to be able to hand over birth records at any time.agreed...
We need to secure the border..... how fucking hard can it be?
seriously in the scope of things it would be dirt cheap to build a Jurassic Park style electric fence the entire border..... anything that messes with it is done
once the border is secure then you can deal with the illegals in country already
that is just my 2 cents
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zbrown;310282 wrote:
agreed...We need to secure the border..... how fucking hard can it be?
seriously in the scope of things it would be dirt cheap to build a Jurassic Park style electric fence the entire border..... anything that messes with it is done
once the border is secure then you can deal with the illegals in country already
that is just my 2 cents
Or we could do as thrash suggests:
thrash;310196 wrote:
There's a very easy way to fix the immigration problem. Remove the incentives for people to come here.What are the incentives?
- free housing
- free education
- jobs
- free ER treatment
- lucrative drug market
- complete lack of enforcement of border security
I don't dispute that there is a problem. But the approaches being suggested [asking everyone for papers, building a giant fence, building a giant kill-zone]... i mean were you guys paying attention in world history class? ** Do you think that the government told east berliners that the wall was to keep them IN while they were building it? "Oh fuck! Now that we're trapped inside this place by the goddamn army, I guess we should have thought harder about what they were doing to keep out those evil Westerners!"**
The only solution, is to remove the bad incentives. It's not an issue of whether mexican immigrants are good or bad people. They are reasonable people making a reasonable choice, given the incentives. Remove the bad incentives:
- remove the minimum wage and other protection laws that make it impossible to hire Americans into low-wage positions
- remove the "must-treat" rules at ERs, so that people can be turned away at the providers discretion
- remove birth-right citizenship for all people. Native-born Americans have just as much lazy-lard-ass entitlement as some of the immigrants do
- remove housing assistance, education, scholarships, etc for all non-citizens (remove it for everybody, eventually)
- repeal drug laws that finance much of the organized crime
- untie the hands of the border patrol and private land owners on the border.
- authorize shoot-on-sight prosecutorial immunity for private land owners in high-crime / high border-crossing areas
Basically, i want all of the people I can get as long as they are willing to work instead of mooch. We cannot make people work, but we can keep them from mooching.
If people want to come gushing across the border to work their ass off, and to be net contributors -- let them.
I'm kind of back and forth on the minimum wage thing, but ultimately I think it has done more harm than good. If you raise minimum wage all you really do is raise the price of goods.
I also think (to add to this) that employers should be held liable to a higher degree for hiring illegal laborers.
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You prob know this, but this has nothing to do with the new AZ law since it's not enacted yet. It was the Feds that detained him.
The new AZ law actually says that a drivers license IS a valid form of identification (line 39 of the bill).
It will be interesting to hear what the feds had to say about this Abdon guys detention. Everything I've been able to find just tells one side of the story, it doesn't seem legit.
thrash;310280 wrote:
Which doesn't mean jack shit since there are tons of illegals with drivers licenses.Were you required to show your birth certificate to get your license? You certainly aren't in many states.
I didn't say "ID". I said birth certificate. AZ will not consider your ND drivers license as valid if they don't think the ND licensing process does sufficient due dilligence to show legal resident status before issuing a license.
They have already thrown a US Citizen in jail in AZ.. a trucker who had a DL/CDL from a state they didn't "trust" to do good enough background checks.
His wife had to go and dig up his real birth certificate before they would let this guy out of jail. For what? For being guilty of being brown?
AZ [and the USA in general] is in a bad situation; intelligent people don't deny that. But this cure may be worse than the poison. There are certainly better ways of dealing with the issue than requiring all Americans to be able to hand over birth records at any time. Thats some soviet union bullshit right there.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;310292 wrote:
The new AZ law actually says that a drivers license IS a valid form of identification (line 39 of the bill).13 ARTICLE 8. ENFORCEMENT OF IMMIGRATION LAWS
14 11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of
15 immigration laws; indemnification
16 A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY LIMIT OR RESTRICT THE
18 ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT
19 PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE
29 VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION
30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. **A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.
41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.
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