Political thread 2011
-
Trafik Jamz;325371 wrote:
especially on those who spend 99.99999% of their income to live.Why does that matter?> Trafik Jamz;325371 wrote:
I can make one statement with a fair amount of certainty, shifting to the 9/9/9 plan is regressiveI haven't researched the 999 deal much, but from just looking at the basics it is anything but regressive. You can make "what if" senarios where the "rich guy" doesn't buy anything and bypasses the sales tax completely, but that is just silly. The "rich guy" has to spend at least as much as the "poor guy" to on the basics to live, most often times way more I would guess (nicer clothes, better food, etc). > Trafik Jamz;325371 wrote:
I'd much rather see a tax rate of say 13% FLAT across the board except for those below the poverty line (progessive tax up to the poverty line, flat after that). No business deductions, no personal deductions, nothing. You make a dollar you pay thirteen cents. You make $1,000,000 you pay 130,000. And I KNOW that isn't a popular idea anywhere, but it is the most fair.A flat tax is ok too, altho I don't really see the end numbers really being much different than the 999 plan. Lets not talk about "fair". "Fair would be everyone paying the same amount. You are an american, you pay $3000 in tax, I'm an american, I pay $3000 in tax, torbs is an american, he pays $3000 in tax, baller fontaine is an american, he pays $3000 in tax. :DI would mainly just like to see that everyone has some skin in the game, the fact that ~43% don't pay income tax is just rediculous.DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
63vette;325375 wrote:
Can you name one person making 50k and paying no takes. I cant, its almost impossible unless the person is getting the 50k already from the government in aid, grants, etc..Me, 2 years ago....paid zero taxes, made decent money between my wife and I (way more than $50,000) but I have cattle and other write-off's that I get to depreciate on my father's farm. Last year I made too much on the cattle and paid in a bit. Don't ask me to explain how, I have an accountant that does my taxes for me.
-
DaveH;325376 wrote:
Why does that matter?I haven't researched the 999 deal much, but from just looking at the basics it is anything but regressive. You can make "what if" senarios where the "rich guy" doesn't buy anything and bypasses the sales tax completely, but that is just silly.Never said they wouldn't buy anything, just that they don't spend ALL of their extra income each paycheck like most of the poor do. Let's say they put away 10% of their money. If that is $100,000 per year (on a millionaire) then they are paying a lower rate than the ones who put away $0/year. The regressive part about it is that the poor will almost always spend all of their money every year whereas each level up from them will save a larger portion.
The "rich guy" has to spend at least as much as the "poor guy" to on the basics to live, most often times way more I would guess (nicer clothes, better food, etc).
I agree, he will spend more, but not a higher percentage of his income. No doubt, the dollar amount will be higher for nicer things but he will still pay a lower percentage vs what he earned.
A flat tax is ok too, altho I don't really see the end numbers really being much different than the 999 plan.
Except it's based on income, not consumption purchasing.
Lets not talk about "fair". "Fair would be everyone paying the same amount. You are an american, you pay $3000 in tax, I'm an american, I pay $3000 in tax, torbs is an american, he pays $3000 in tax, baller fontaine is an american, he pays $3000 in tax. :DI would mainly just like to see that everyone has some skin in the game, the fact that ~43% don't pay income tax is just rediculous.
I agree with the last sentence (it's 52% now I believe), and while I agree with the CONCEPT of everyone paying X amount, I don't think the reality is there for that EVER happening. So the next most fair thing is to have everyone taxed at the same rate as that is the most likely to happen (though still slim)
-
It must be the same accountant that Wesley Snipes uses.:D> Trafik Jamz;325377 wrote:
Me, 2 years ago....paid zero taxes, made decent money between my wife and I (way more than $50,000) but I have cattle and other write-off's that I get to depreciate on my father's farm. Last year I made too much on the cattle and paid in a bit. Don't ask me to explain how, I have an accountant that does my taxes for me.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
Chuck, when you look into the specifics of the 999 plan there is one thing that makes it the most NON-regressive of all plans
the 9% excludes necessities, such as rent/housing, food, and clothing. Thus the tax only really applies to luxury items such as bentley's, escalades, jewelry, etc. As a result the sales tax is nothing more than replacement for the luxury tax that was used for years previously, so this isnt a "new tax" its been around forever. Thus the more money you have the more (as a %) of your income goes to the sales tax. If you are making 20k a year odds are 70-80% of your income goes to those 3 basic items, which means you only essentially pay the 9% income tax.
Another thing is, the ONLY WAY we are going to be able to extract ANY taxes from worthless illegals and also the massive amount of tourism that is here is to implement a national sales tax, I like that cain is leading to that point eventually as there is no way it could be done in one swoop in this environment.
Also how can you not expect prices to fall? Corporate taxes are going to fall from 35% to 9%, those taxes are embedded in the price of items already, so we are looking at a minimum of 15% decrease in price liability to cover those costs. Include the massive accounting and tax savings, not to mention lobbying costs and such and the potential savings are huge. On another note, if prices simply remained the same the savings from the tax structure would result in much larger profits, and in turn much higher dividends to stockholders such as ourselves
-
Grr;325422 wrote:
Chuck, when you look into the specifics of the 999 plan there is one thing that makes it the most NON-regressive of all plansthe 9% excludes necessities, such as rent/housing, food, and clothing. Thus the tax only really applies to luxury items such as bentley's, escalades, jewelry, etc. As a result the sales tax is nothing more than replacement for the luxury tax that was used for years previously, so this isnt a "new tax" its been around forever. Thus the more money you have the more (as a %) of your income goes to the sales tax. If you are making 20k a year odds are 70-80% of your income goes to those 3 basic items, which means you only essentially pay the 9% income tax.
Another thing is, the ONLY WAY we are going to be able to extract ANY taxes from worthless illegals and also the massive amount of tourism that is here is to implement a national sales tax, I like that cain is leading to that point eventually as there is no way it could be done in one swoop in this environment.
Also how can you not expect prices to fall? Corporate taxes are going to fall from 35% to 9%, those taxes are embedded in the price of items already, so we are looking at a minimum of 15% decrease in price liability to cover those costs. Include the massive accounting and tax savings, not to mention lobbying costs and such and the potential savings are huge. On another note, if prices simply remained the same the savings from the tax structure would result in much larger profits, and in turn much higher dividends to stockholders such as ourselves
Fair enough, I'll have to read up more on the the sales tax portion. EDIT: Gary, can you please give me a link to look for the info you provided on this? Cain's website doesn't specify any exemptions.
How do I not expect prices to fall? Easy, manufacturing has been shipped overseas for decades lowering the costs of doing business substantially for corporations. The prices on MOST items still go up every year without exception. Lowering corporate taxes will lead to larger pay at the top (just like cutting jobs and shipping them overseas does) and at best prices maintaining their current prices on at the consumer level. I'd be willing to bet $1,000 that if Cain gets elected AND his 9/9/9 plan is put in effect that prices do not significantly drop on anything (besides tv's, phones, etc... because those things already get cheaper over time).
Besides, there are a BUNCH of Fortune 500 companies already paying less than 9% in corporate taxes and their products aren't known for getting cheaper:
Red Hat, Inc
Pre-tax income: $463 million
Taxes paid: $21 million
Tax rate: 4.62%Boeing Co.
Pre-tax income: $17,587 million
Taxes paid: $796 million
Tax rate: 4.46%Amazon (Best argument for lower prices, but they were built on low price items/services from the get go...anyway, expect their prices to go up under Cain's plan)
Pre-tax income: $3,512 million
Taxes paid: $152 million
Tax rate: 4.33%Broadcom Corp
Pre-tax income: $1,228 million
Taxes paid: $41 million
Tax rate: 3.32%Host Hotels & Resorts
Pre-tax income: $1,116 million
Taxes paid: $34 million
Tax rate: 3.05%NRG Energy, Inc
Pre-tax income: $5,343 million
Taxes paid: $154 million
Tax rate: 2.88%Teco Energy, Inc
Pre-tax income: $1,620 million
Taxes paid: $37 million
Tax rate: 2.31%Allegheny Energy Inc
Pre-tax income: $2,538 million
Taxes paid: $58 million
Tax rate: 2.28%NVIDIA Corporation
Pre-tax income: $1,817 million
Taxes paid: $41 million
Tax rate: 2.24%Xcel Energy
Pre-tax income: $4,334 million
Taxes paid: $77 million
Tax rate: 1.78%NextEra Energy Inc
Pre-tax income: $8,572 million
Taxes paid: $149 million
Tax rate: 1.74%Plum Creek Timber Co. Inc
Pre-tax income: $1,355 million
Taxes paid: $22 million
Tax rate: 1.62%Western Digital Corp
Pre-tax income: $2,507 million
Taxes paid: $40 million
Tax rate: 1.6%HCP Inc
Pre-tax income: $614 million
Taxes paid: $9 million
Tax rate: 1.42%Carnival Corporation
Pre-tax income: $11,250 million
Taxes paid: $126 million
Tax rate: 1.12%Range Resource Corporation
Pre-tax income: $1,228 million
Taxes paid: $7 million
Tax rate: 0.53%The above is based on aggregate data from 2005 to 2009
Article I copy/pasted my data from: http://www.businessinsider.com/16-more-profitable-companies-that-pay-almost-nothing-in-taxes-2011-3#16-red-hat-inc-rht-1
-
Further review from Politifact:
Politifact wrote:
Here, we wanted to check Cain’s answer to Cooper’s question, that the plan "does not raise taxes on those that are making the least."We’ve been looking at Cain’s plan as part of our ongoing work fact-checking the Republican nomination contest. Based on what Cain and his campaign have said about the plan, the only exemptions on the income tax will be for charitable deductions and for undefined "empowerment" zones that would encourage development in inner cities. The 9 percent sales tax would apply to all new goods but not to used goods. Payroll taxes on workers would go away.
If you pay no income tax currently -- and about half the country doesn’t -- Cain’s plan means you would pay more income tax.
The day of the debate, a new analysis was published examining Cain’s tax plan. The analysis was published by the Tax Policy Center, an independent policy analysis group that includes tax analysts who have worked in both Democratic and Republican administrations.
The Tax Policy Center analyzed Cain’s plan using the same type of models it has used to examine other national tax proposals.
The analysis found that Cain’s tax plan would result in tax cuts for many of the wealthiest tax payers and tax increases for the poorest tax payers.
The center found that 83.8 percent of tax filers would get a tax increase under Cain’s plan, compared with current tax policy.
On the other hand, most of the tax filers who make more than $1 million would get a tax cut under the Cain plan, about 95.4 percent of this high income group. And the average tax cut for millionaires would be $487,300.
The center also offered analysis of Cain’s plan by income level compared with current tax policy. Most people earning lower incomes would see a tax increase.
Cash income--------------------Percentage of filers with a tax increase
Less than $10,000--------------84.1
$10,000 to $20,000------------ 97.8
$20,000 to $30,000------------ 97.3
$30,000 to $40,000------------ 94.9
$40,000 to $50,000------------ 92.1
$50,000 to $75,000------------ 83.7We should note that the Tax Policy Center said it had to make a few assumptions about Cain’s plan in order to analyze the plan according to its standard economic model. So it’s possible Cain may release more details that could cause these estimates to change.
Cain said the 9-9-9 plan "does not raise taxes on those that are making the least." But it would raise income taxes on people who now have low tax burdens due to exemptions and deductions. The Tax Policy Center analysis adds more detail and found that high percentages of lower-income tax filers would see tax increases. It’s true that Cain’s campaign may release more details on his plan that could change this picture. But knowing what we know now about the plan, we rate Cain’s statement False.
Unless new details arise, I see virtually no proof that this isn't the most regressive tax ever proposed.
-
DaveH;325376 wrote:
Lets not talk about "fair". "Fair would be everyone paying the same amount. You are an american, you pay $3000 in tax, I'm an american, I pay $3000 in tax, torbs is an american, he pays $3000 in tax, baller fontaine is an american, he pays $3000 in tax. :DNot many people seem to grasp that this is what a "Fair tax" would look like. I like to ask these 99%ers, "Do the rich consume more government resources than the poor?" Any tax based on a percentage is inherently UNfair. And any progressive tax is DOUBLY unfair.People need to understand that mathematical truth before negotiating up from there.
With that said, those who make more money are generally willing to pay a little more as part of an unwritten "social contract" to use a lefty term. But to claim that the rich don't pay their "fair share" is ridiculous. Add that to the fact they they are our employers, and it's easy to see why they're a little pissed off.
-
[email protected];325427 wrote:
Not many people seem to grasp that this is what a "Fair tax" would look like. I like to ask these 99%ers, "Do the rich consume more government resources than the poor?" Any tax based on a percentage is inherently UNfair. And any progressive tax is DOUBLY unfair.Many times that answer is going to be yes, the rich DO get more government benefits (I'm defining "benefits" as any source of revenue or incentive received) than the poor. Whether it is the ability to earn money tax free (until the money is taken out of the fund anyway) on their investments in hedge funds and then borrowing money against the earned interest of those funds so that it looks like they are actually losing money every year, even though they are worth millions.
To say the poor don't pay "any taxes" (you didn't say it, but it's an argument I always here) is crazy as well. While it is true that up to 50% don't pay any federal income tax, they are still required to pay payroll taxes which pay for social programs such as medicare and social security. Every single wage earner in this country pays those taxes and at the exact same rate....unless you make more than $106,800/year, that is the cap after which you are no longer required to pay any additional money into Social Security/Medicare. You can make the argument that the poor take more benefits from SS/Medicare than the rich perhaps, but I don't know of a single person who has ever turned down SS/Medicare once they've retired. Keep in mind that statistically you have a >67% chance to have either cancer or heart disease regardless of income level and lifestyle (some things raise that rate of course...) so MOST people will have to use Medicare at some point in their lives, not just the poor...and when they do it will be costly.
With that said, those who make more money are generally willing to pay a little more as part of an unwritten "social contract" to use a lefty term. But to claim that the rich don't pay their "fair share" is ridiculous. Add that to the fact they they are our employers, and it's easy to see why they're a little pissed off.
Many don't though. A lot do, but many don't pay their "fair share". I can look to my own father for this one (who is by no means rich, but I never went hungry growing up either). He started farming in 1970 and bought the farm from my grandpa in 1972. I remember in 2001 him telling me that this was the first year that he ever had to pay federal income tax, and that was only because my mom went to work at a nursing home as a low wage CNA (to this day she still makes under $11/hour, which is the norm for Rugby, ND). Never mind that from 1995 to 2010 he has received almost $527,000 in subsidies.
So, do I think my own father paid his "fair share" of taxes? No. He doesn't think so either. I don't pay my fair share most years either. Yes, I have it taken out of my paycheck like most of the rest of us, but at the end of the year I get the majority of the money back because of my write offs. Just because I don't think I'm paying enough doesn't mean that I'm not going to do everything in my power to ensure that I get as much money back as is possible at the end of the year. Why? Because legally I have a right to get it back.
-
Trafik Jamz;325429 wrote:
Many times that answer is going to be yes, the rich DO get more government benefits (I'm defining "benefits" as any source of revenue or incentive received) than the poor. Whether it is the ability to earn money tax free (until the money is taken out of the fund anyway) on their investments in hedge funds and then borrowing money against the earned interest of those funds so that it looks like they are actually losing money every year, even though they are worth millions.You can't call out capital gains taxes and ignore entitlements. Entitlements make up a HUGE portion of our budget, and have a vastly bigger impact on our economy than money made on income that's already been taxed in the first place.I do hear an underlying agreement here on simplifying the tax code.
Trafik Jamz;325429 wrote:
To say the poor don't pay "any taxes" (you didn't say it, but it's an argument I always here) is crazy as well. .You're absolutely right, I didn't. You can't breathe in this country without being taxed.> Trafik Jamz;325429 wrote:
Many don't though. A lot do, but many don't pay their "fair share". I can look to my own father for this one (who is by no means rich, but I never went hungry growing up either). He started farming in 1970 and bought the farm from my grandpa in 1972. I remember in 2001 him telling me that this was the first year that he ever had to pay federal income tax, and that was only because my mom went to work at a nursing home as a low wage CNA (to this day she still makes under $11/hour, which is the norm for Rugby, ND). Never mind that from 1995 to 2010 he has received almost $527,000 in subsidies.So, do I think my own father paid his "fair share" of taxes? No. He doesn't think so either. I don't pay my fair share most years either. Yes, I have it taken out of my paycheck like most of the rest of us, but at the end of the year I get the majority of the money back because of my write offs. Just because I don't think I'm paying enough doesn't mean that I'm not going to do everything in my power to ensure that I get as much money back as is possible at the end of the year. Why? Because legally I have a right to get it back.I ran the numbers last year and very generally speaking, anyone making under $100k is not paying enough federal taxes to cover the per-capita spend. Spending is out of control - reign that in and you can ease the burden for everyone.
-
I'm all for figuring out a way to drastically reduce entitlements or how entitlements are paid, however IF capital gains via hedge funds, etc... were taxed like they SHOULD be at the time they were received/earned there would be a big influx of revenue there as well, the last number I recall being thrown around was $2trillion sitting in hedge funds. If taxed at even a 15% capital gains rate that would generate $300,000,000,000 in tax revenue. Now, there's a good likelihood that not ALL of that money will sit there forever and that some will be paid out to the hedge fund owners, but even if it is 1/2 that stays in, that would be $150 billion that is sitting there as money people have made but are not taxed on.
But yes, we absolutely need to cut spending in this country, but that alone will not get us out of the financial mess we are in. We NEED to increase revenue with it...and everyone should be asked to pay a bit more, at least in the short term.
-
If you put a tax on cap gains, should you also let people use cap losses as a tax deduction? > Trafik Jamz;325432 wrote:
however IF capital gains via hedge funds, etc... were taxed like they SHOULD be at the time they were received/earned there would be a big influx of revenue there as well, the last number I recall being thrown around was $2trillion sitting in hedge funds. If taxed at even a 15% capital gains rate that would generate $300,000,000,000 in tax revenue. Now, there's a good likelihood that not ALL of that money will sit there forever and that some will be paid out to the hedge fund owners, but even if it is 1/2 that stays in, that would be $150 billion that is sitting there as money people have made but are not taxed on.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
Yes. It is my understanding that some capital losses are currently deductible from taxes as is...well, I just read it a bit and it limits out at $3000. I guess to be fair if you have a capital loss you should be able to deduct 15% of it from your taxes since if you have a gain you should have to pay 15% on your taxes.
-
Trafik Jamz;325435 wrote:
well, I just read it a bit and it limits out at $3000. I guess to be fair if you have a capital loss you should be able to deduct 15% of it from your taxes since if you have a gain you should have to pay 15% on your taxes.Yeah, $3k is a joke.With cap loss deductions, there would have been a LOT less taxes collected since the market took a dump.DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
last year was a great year to be in the market Dave. I made money on all of my investments in 2010 (401k, UL Insurance, Stocks, Bonds, etc..) Cumulatively I was +28% on the year. The DJIA was within 10% of all time highs. There would have been money made on taxes that year. Also, just because a stock goes down doesn't mean that everyone lost money. Some people short stocks and make money on the decline.
-
Trafik Jamz;325438 wrote:
last year was a great year to be in the market Dave. I made money on all of my investments in 2010 (401k, UL Insurance, Stocks, Bonds, etc..) Cumulatively I was +28% on the year. The DJIA was within 10% of all time highs. There would have been money made on taxes that year. Also, just because a stock goes down doesn't mean that everyone lost money. Some people short stocks and make money on the decline.I didn't say "last year".
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
overall it would be a net gain. Some years significantly less than others, but still a net gain in tax revenue.
-
Maybe. You are assuming that the US economy recovers and that there would be cap gains..> Trafik Jamz;325441 wrote:
overall it would be a net gain. Some years significantly less than others, but still a net gain in tax revenue.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login