"Sicko".....just finished watching it..
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amicheze;193734 wrote:
Apparently it's wrong (and un-American, and communist/socialist) of me to think that helping people is a good thing. My bad.The last time I went to a doctor, I waited in the waiting room for over an hour, finally got in, and got told "I don't know what's wrong with you. Try this medicine and see if it works. I can't guarantee anything though." The entire visit was less than 10 minutes, and I got charged just shy of $300. If I was in a serious accident, I can't imagine what the bill would be.
Helping people is a great thing. Help all the people you can and you'll be much better for it. I help out as many people as I can as well.
Confusing helping people with a socialized health system is a huge mistake.
Doctors "practice" medicine, they often don't know what the problem is but they do their best to figure it out and help.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
A. i never said cuba had AWESOME health care, i said it was a good stunt...
B. i never said he was a great film maker, i said i enjoy hearing peoples uncensored opinions
C. sounds like you are a fuckin expert, make your own movie about the fine points of our absolutely perfect healthcare system.
but before you roll credits on it, i want a part in it... one where i get to bitch out that mexican for getting his finger reattatched for FREE when I PAY FOR HEALTHCARE and cannot even get the end of my thumb put back on... no air lift to a hand specialist in mayo, no ambulance ride to the specialist at innovis hell i dont even get a written referal to mayo because "it doesnt hurt again yet."
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also, by giving that winner of an example in that poor illegal and his finger you sort of made my point. our healthcare system is terrible. dave, let me know when you get a thank you card in the mail from him because you paid for it.
im still waiting for mine, got my blue cross blue shield sweater vest on and mangled thumb ready to dig right into it
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StangerBanger96;193488 wrote:
Nope, I try to get important information from slightly less biased/idiotic sources...im not saying he is the final word on any subject at all, but if you can name one unbiased source ill eat weshole's taint.
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you should go read up on the "logical fallacies" series of articles on Wikipedia, since you're commiting several of them.
I'm not saying America's healthcare system is awesome. Nor am I saying that it's either our current scheme or communism. You (and others) seem to be impliying that I'm saying at least one of the two.
Receiving health care is not a right. For it to be a "right" that your government grants you, that means your government has to be willing to put a gun to the head of a doctor to MAKE that person provide it to you.
In the same sense, "food" is not a right and neither is a job.
Yes, you SHOULD have to pay to see a doctor because doctors are providing you a valuable service. Yes, your health has a cost.
Now, the question is... do you want to decide what that cost is, or do you want the government to decide for you?
It's fine to criticize some peoples health care in the US... criticism causes improvement.
It's not fine to demand universal or socialized medicine... because that demonstrates ignorance at best, or malicious stupidity at its worst.
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A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything away
read what i said earlier. Name one country with socialized care that has better performance than the US. name one government agency you interact with that gives you satisfactory service.
why does anyone think it will be different this time? the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result next time...
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thrash;193787 wrote:
read what i said earlier. Name one country with socialized care that has better performance than the US. name one government agency you interact with that gives you satisfactory service.
Would you define "performance" as it pertains to your sentence. -
How would you define it? For any reasonable definition, the US still comes out on top. When I had it in mind, I was thinking mostly in terms of -- quality of care provided and speediness of getting to see a specialist.
A friend of mine went to France on vacation and got really really sick saturday evening. He couldn't find anyone on Sunday that was open to help him. I thought everyone got healthcare in France! But only 32 hours a week -- just like all other french labor
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Thrash while I am on your side and agree that socialized healthcare is stupid and will hopefully never happen in the US of A, we are ranked #37 by the W.H.O. as far as overall healthcare standards.
I'd be willing to bet we could be top 10 on that list if we were to just crack down on frivolous malpractice lawsuits that constantly get filed on doctors. Those suits in turn force them to purchase SUPER expensive insurance to cover themselves in case they are sued. That cost is in turn passed down to the consumer...IE injured people. Crack down on those lawsuits and I'd be willing to bet prices for healthcare-related things would plummet (assuming prices would reflect the lower cost to Doctors).
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Ironically, Dave asked for one gov't program in this country that works well.....Medicaid, if you are BROKE. I spent 2 years in Rugby, ND processing insurance for Johnson Clinic and can say w/o a doubt that the Medicaid system is by far the best health care you can get...zero deductibles/copay, access to many of the best local doctors (we refered them to Mayo and other clinics regularly), free prescription drugs, etc.... And really, it wasn't the "people working the system" for the most part that got these benefits, most times it was the 70+ year old farmer who fell seriously ill, moved into a nursing home or LTC facility and was forced to sell his assets to stay someplace where he could be cared for. Many of these people I knew well as hard working, non-handout-taking people. Were there a few abusers, yeah, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't, but they were the super-minority (less than 2% I'd say).
Another ironic twist is that I don't like the idea of gov't sponsored healthcare. I'd <u>maybe</u> be ok with a tax credit every year to help offset insurance costs, but I don't want the Gov't involved in setting up my policy for myself or my family.... (I also worked w/ HMO's there.....MAJOR problems when you let someone else control when/where you can go to the Dr. and what specialist you can see, etc....)
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we are ranked #37 by the W.H.O. as far as overall healthcare standards.
We're also ranked behind like 30 european places in terms of free-press, blah blah blah.
The sorts of euro-snobs that sit around ranking countries at different stuff seem to measure different things than I woud. But then, lots of people that don't live here can't imagine how we do. I was talking to some tweens in a classroom in germany and they were talking about how they'd feeel completely unsafe in the US beacuse you never knew who had a gun and would just shoot you... it was hillarious. Many of "them" just don't "get" us.
I'm not so ignorant that i've never left the US, or that i think the US is awesome at everything. I have, and it isn't. There is no perfect system. Regarding healthcare, people are in a big hurry to trade one set of problems for a different set of problems.. and not many people have lived under both systems and have really had dual-experience.
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The way I see it is that if the government was in charge of healthcare, i'm sure they won't be paying the doctors near as much as they get right now. Now I know most people in the situation that are in a job and don't get paid near as much as they should don't really give a crap about the job and don't perform to their full ability. If I got paid a little less than I do at my job I probably wouldn't be doing shit...It all comes down to people work as hard as you pay them. If the government were to foot the salaries of all the doctors in this country, at the amount they get paid now, I don't think they could raise taxes near enough to cover it...
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bubba;193871 wrote:
The way I see it is that if the government was in charge of healthcare, i'm sure they won't be paying the doctors near as much as they get right now. Now I know most people in the situation that are in a job and don't get paid near as much as they should don't really give a crap about the job and don't perform to their full ability. If I got paid a little less than I do at my job I probably wouldn't be doing shit...It all comes down to people work as hard as you pay them. If the government were to foot the salaries of all the doctors in this country, at the amount they get paid now, I don't think they could raise taxes near enough to cover it...The company I work for charges more per 1 hour visit than most doctors/specialists in the area. Does that mean that the gov't should pay for my company as well? Think about this, the doctors/surgeons/specialists at Meritcare (for example) have to bring in enough money to not only support themselves, but also to cover the insurance that they need to have (malpractice and others), the wages of all of their staff, including nurses, anesthesiologists, CNA's, Receptionists, Janitors, operating expenses, utilities, etc... A good Dr. earns every penny he makes
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I'm kinda confused chuck, my post was a reason why we should NOT have government funded healthcare. And from the stand point that our gov't probably wouldnt be paying the doctors enough money for an incentive to work as hard as they could... I never said they got paid to much, I meant the gov't would most likely end up paying them too little. I believe they earn every penny as well...
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thrash;193781 wrote:
you should go read up on the "logical fallacies" series of articles on Wikipedia, since you're commiting several of them.I'm not saying America's healthcare system is awesome. Nor am I saying that it's either our current scheme or communism. You (and others) seem to be impliying that I'm saying at least one of the two.
Receiving health care is not a right. For it to be a "right" that your government grants you, that means your government has to be willing to put a gun to the head of a doctor to MAKE that person provide it to you.
In the same sense, "food" is not a right and neither is a job.
Yes, you SHOULD have to pay to see a doctor because doctors are providing you a valuable service. Yes, your health has a cost.
Now, the question is... do you want to decide what that cost is, or do you want the government to decide for you?
It's fine to criticize some peoples health care in the US... criticism causes improvement.
It's not fine to demand universal or socialized medicine... because that demonstrates ignorance at best, or malicious stupidity at its worst.
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how are you not saying its awesome? you are arguing that it is in fact number one, despite the fact the rest of the world thinks otherwise.
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if its not a right then why did some illegal guy get his finger back for free?
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i know what it costs, and for what i have recieved it is far too much. in fact, it is utterly pathetic.
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im citisizing it and your putting your gramatically correct foot in it for speaking out. if speaking out leads to improvement like you just said, quit saying how terrible micheal moore is because, after all, he is just trying to make a difference.
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if all the people in countries with socialized healthcare love it, or perhaps more importantly are not all dead, how can you call it ignorant and stupid? just because it may not work for the US doesnt mean its wrong. thats the attitude that has caused the rest of the world to dispise us.
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I wonder if there is a statistic that shows purely how happy citizens are with their healthcare in their country...nothing more nothing less. I'd be willing to bet the US is on par with the rest of the world.
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24valvenotak;193886 wrote:
- how are you not saying its awesome? you are arguing that it is in fact number one, despite the fact the rest of the world thinks otherwise.
I will go ahead and say that our health system is awesome. We have the best doctors, the most advanced facilities and we lead the world in new medical technology by a long shot. The problem is not the health care provider, it is all the crap surrounding it. The legal aspect is huge, for sure. But in my opinion health insurance itself is probably the biggest problem. Health insurance is basically socialism, it has taken away the free market part of our health system. People either buy or get insurance from their employer, and then at that point they give two shits less what anything costs because big brother (insurance) is paying for it. When is the last time anyone here went in for a checkup (or any other doctor visit) and shopped around to get the best price?
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;193895 wrote:
I will go ahead and say that our health system is awesome. We have the best doctors, the most advanced facilities and we lead the world in new medical technology by a long shot.Brought to you in part by a NON-socialized healthcare system. We are the world leader in R&D on new drugs/treatments. Socialize our healthcare system and wave byebye to all that. We R&D it, generic brands produce it and sell it WAY below the "name brand" price through Canada or a generic name.
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