In a shocking turn of events
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Trafik Jamz;259907 wrote:
So to that I'd say that they ARE doing what their constituents want....at least to a degree.And for CLARITY (something I don't see anyone else posting) here is a competing poll showing that they want it passed, but with changes.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114097/Americans-Support-Stimulus-Major-Changes.aspx
All those polls show is that Americans feel that some kind of stimulus bill needs to be passed. However, it does not go into anything about what should actually be in the stimulus bill. Those polls are very generalized and one cannot make definitive claims on specific things using those polls as reference.
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Right, which brings me back to my original point. The republicans haven't stepped up with an alternative bill.
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Exactly my point. There is no longer a defining distinction between the two parties in REALITY. In principle, sure, but no one follows their principles. Sitting on your ass is not leading. Grandstanding/bitching/whining will accomplish nothing. They are the MINORITY party. At best they can hope to shape policies/bills, but they really don't have a shot at creating them 100% according to their ideology. Politics is a game of give and take. When you are facing a potential super-majority against you, your best shot is to try and make sure it isn't swinging just too far away from your beliefs...and again, doing nothing doesn't accomplish shit in my eyes.
And I'm 100% convinced that we can not tax cut our way out of this shit, just as I am 100% convinced that raising taxes is the dumbest thing we could do right now. Actually, let's try the tax cut method for the bottom 95% of wage earners. Leave the top 5% as they are for right now and eliminate 100% of all income tax for anyone making less than $250,000 a year. I'm willing to bet that the "rich" will make more money this way than if we just lowered the income tax on them by another few points. Why? Because it would stimulate spending. If I didn't have to pay a cent in income tax next year or for the next 3 years, I can guarantee that I'd spend/invest a ton more than I do now.
Now can anyone honestly tell me that they think that if the reverse were true and we eliminated income tax on the top 5% only that it would have as positive of an impact on the economy?
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Trafik Jamz;259921 wrote:
And I'm 100% convinced that we can not tax cut our way out of this shit, just as I am 100% convinced that raising taxes is the dumbest thing we could do right now. Actually, let's try the tax cut method for the bottom 95% of wage earners. Leave the top 5% as they are for right now and eliminate 100% of all income tax for anyone making less than $250,000 a year. I'm willing to bet that the "rich" will make more money this way than if we just lowered the income tax on them by another few points. Why? Because it would stimulate spending. If I didn't have to pay a cent in income tax next year or for the next 3 years, I can guarantee that I'd spend/invest a ton more than I do now.Now can anyone honestly tell me that they think that if the reverse were true and we eliminated income tax on the top 5% only that it would have as positive of an impact on the economy?
Why should the top 5% have to pay income tax and those who are making less than that and utilizing more of the services pay nothing?
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i just don't get why this is so hard, NO bailout.
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Trafik Jamz;259921 wrote:
Exactly my point. There is no longer a defining distinction between the two parties in REALITY. In principle, sure, but no one follows their principles. Sitting on your ass is not leading. Grandstanding/bitching/whining will accomplish nothing. They are the MINORITY party. At best they can hope to shape policies/bills, but they really don't have a shot at creating them 100% according to their ideology. Politics is a game of give and take. When you are facing a potential super-majority against you, your best shot is to try and make sure it isn't swinging just too far away from your beliefs...and again, doing nothing doesn't accomplish shit in my eyes.And I'm 100% convinced that we can not tax cut our way out of this shit, just as I am 100% convinced that raising taxes is the dumbest thing we could do right now. Actually, let's try the tax cut method for the bottom 95% of wage earners. Leave the top 5% as they are for right now and eliminate 100% of all income tax for anyone making less than $250,000 a year. I'm willing to bet that the "rich" will make more money this way than if we just lowered the income tax on them by another few points. Why? Because it would stimulate spending. If I didn't have to pay a cent in income tax next year or for the next 3 years, I can guarantee that I'd spend/invest a ton more than I do now.
Now can anyone honestly tell me that they think that if the reverse were true and we eliminated income tax on the top 5% only that it would have as positive of an impact on the economy?
wait wait wait.... you agree with me that it will be the middle class, and the american small businessman that will save this sinking ship, and not big business?
Like i said before, give the CEO's and big wigs more money and they will stuff it in there pockets, give it to the small businessman and middle class americans and we will invest back into our economy/country.
Also this fear mongering bullshit isn't going to cut it as far as i'm concerned. Getting on national television and falsely and telling the American people that we as a country will be screwed if his stimulus bill isn't passed is absolute garbage. This is a very far fetched interpretation of T.R.'s idea of the Bully Pulpit of the President, and is being used in the wrong way. Why would you not use your position to instill confidence in the American people that we will come out of this RECESSION?, which is what it still is, despite what you will hear from left wing sources.
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Why don't we ever use the tactic of "fear mongering" for a positive thing? Put a positive up swing on things, "markets looking up" kinda shit, it's the media that ultimately cause the american panic during this recession, and I think they are responsible for a lot of things wrong with this country(well, extremely big corporation as a whole I suppose, but different reason).
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PSiedTSi;259931 wrote:
Why don't we ever use the tactic of "fear mongering" for a positive thing? Put a positive up swing on things, "markets looking up" kinda shit, it's the media that ultimately cause the american panic during this recession, and I think they are responsible for a lot of things wrong with this country(well, extremely big corporation as a whole I suppose, but different reason).exactly what i was saying.
Oh, and where are we getting 920,000,000,000 Dollars anyway?
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DaveH;259925 wrote:
Because thats "fair"I never said anything about fair. The only reason I proposed it the way I did was to ultimately get rid of personal income tax entirely. Start off by eliminating income tax on those with the most need (the bottom 95%) and I'm willing to bet that the top 5% will make more money than at any period in recorded history. Since they will be making more, in theory their taxes that were lowered under Bush should help offset the cost of taxing no one. Ultimately I'd love to see reduced spending and no personal income tax at all....but you have to start somewhere.
Notice I'm not raising taxes on anyone at this point.
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GarageAlchemist;259929 wrote:
wait wait wait.... you agree with me that it will be the middle class, and the american small businessman that will save this sinking ship, and not big business?Yes. I've been fairly consistent on that message I believe.
Like i said before, give the CEO's and big wigs more money and they will stuff it in there pockets, give it to the small businessman and middle class americans and we will invest back into our economy/country.
DING DING DING!!!
Also this fear mongering bullshit isn't going to cut it as far as i'm concerned. Getting on national television and falsely and telling the American people that we as a country will be screwed if his stimulus bill isn't passed is absolute garbage. This is a very far fetched interpretation of T.R.'s idea of the Bully Pulpit of the President, and is being used in the wrong way. Why would you not use your position to instill confidence in the American people that we will come out of this RECESSION?, which is what it still is, despite what you will hear from left wing sources.
The fear mongering has happened on both sides of the aisle. Republicans convincing us that spending billions in Iraq is a good thing and that by pulling our funding of the war we will cause the economic collapse of that country and Democrats convincing us that spending billions on Americans is needed to prevent the economic collapse of this country.
The way I see it the Republicans would much rather see Iraq succeed and America fail than the other way around right now. Gotta love their patriotism.
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thrash;259999 wrote:
Question: why are people convinced there is an economic disaster that requires unprecedented intervention? What metric are they using?Or are they just taking it on faith that what politicians tell them is true?
I think this article kind of sums up what a lot of peoples thoughts are on what ended the Great Depression. http://www.shsu.edu/~eco_www/resources/documents/WhatEndedtheGreatDepression.pdf
Whether it is accurate or not...who knows, but I found this part to be interesting...even though it doesn't 100% tie to what we are talking about:
In a comparative study involving at times twenty-six countries, Ben S. Bernanke
(1995) investigated the role of the money stock as it was linked to gold. His was not a
study of the forces of recovery in the entire decade. Rather, he concentrated on the
1929-36 period because it was in the early years that the world economy spun down. It
subsequently began to recover, with different countries initiating their respective
movements to trend at different times. He focused on the behavior of the quantity of
money as responsible for the decline and recovery, with an emphasis on the gold
standard as the vehicle underlying the action.8 This orientation served to view the gold
standard as a restraint on independent monetary measures: “In particular, the evidence
that monetary shocks played a major role in the Great Contraction, and that these
shocks were transmitted around the world primarily through the workings of the gold
standard, is quite compelling” (1995, 2). <u>As countries severed their ties to gold,
recovery commenced; “the evidence is that countries leaving the gold standard
recovered substantially more rapidly and vigorously than those who did not</u>” -
Trafik Jamz;260029 wrote:
I never said anything about fair. The only reason I proposed it the way I did was to ultimately get rid of personal income tax entirely. Start off by eliminating income tax on those with the most need (the bottom 95%) and I'm willing to bet that the top 5% will make more money than at any period in recorded history. Since they will be making more, in theory their taxes that were lowered under Bush should help offset the cost of taxing no one. Ultimately I'd love to see reduced spending and no personal income tax at all....but you have to start somewhere.Notice I'm not raising taxes on anyone at this point.
The US takes in approx 2.5 trillion in taxes a year, 45% of that is income tax which brings you to the roughly 1 billion that the "stimulus" plan is going to cost. Instead of doing a bunch of spending, the govt should have suspended the federal income tax for a year. I know I sure could have done a lot of additional "stimulus" with the money I sent to the fed this year....
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph
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