National Health Care
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i think you may be bordering on one of the real problems that america has but doesn't address: money, not the lack of it, but the lack of dialogue about it. having sold health and life insurance, and investment products, i believe there isn't enough education about what people need.
far too many people who are over 50 have 5k-10k in life insurance, plus what their employer offers, if that much. most people in their 20s and 30s don't have private life insurance, and they've got 2+ kids! what people don't understand is financial planning, both short and long term (which includes health issues, long life plans, and death).
do i think socialism is the way that this country should go? yes, but not because i like it, because americans need a nanny-state. americans have been spoon-fed for so long that they can't even wipe their own butts... which is exactly what our government wants. if i have to spell out why that is, you probably think everyone in government cares about our best interests.
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I don't think we need socialism (true socialized healthcare would be gov't provided healthcare with no choices in who you go to for medical care and all the Dr's working for the gov't, not for themselves), I just think there needs to be better rules/reform to ensure that those who are doing the responsible thing (life, health, supplemental insurance, diverse retirement, etc...) can have a reasonable expectation that their financial interests will be taken care of if/when they have a major health problem.
Trust me when I say I've been contributing to all of the above for as long as I was legally allowed to do so (insurances and investments) and the thought of being diagnosed with cancer and the likelihood that it would be solely responsible for my financial ruin after 16+ years of contribution to the protections/investments pisses me off.
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out there;286544 wrote:
do i think socialism is the way that this country should go? yes, but not because i like it, because americans need a nanny-state. americans have been spoon-fed for so long that they can't even wipe their own butts... which is exactly what our government wants. if i have to spell out why that is, you probably think everyone in government cares about our best interests.Was that sarcasm??
I hope so
The "nanny-state" is the problem..... No one should be spoon fed, life is cutthroat and if you aren't smart enough or lack the motivation to make in in the world then so be it.
so you want to take incentive and opportunity away from every one to babysit a few?
trust me if all the government handouts were gone people would shape up financially right quick, they would have to
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it was not sarcasm, i was addressing the fact that a large portion (probably the majority) of the population can't handle the responsibilities that come with adulthood.
if people in this country could handle those responsibilities, there wouldn't be epidemic-level obesity, rampant alcohol-related deaths, excessive illnesses caused by processed tobacco, et al. there are so many problems with a snapshot of america that it makes me sick.
as i've said before, i would leave this country if i weren't so socially inept.
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out there;286551 wrote:
it was not sarcasm, i was addressing the fact that a large portion (probably the majority) of the population can't handle the responsibilities that come with adulthood.So your approach to solving this is with the government becoming more and more of the parent figure and watching out over all and making the dependency worse??
You know i am going to state a fucked up analogy right now....
This is just like the fucking movie "Wall-e", yeah yeah, i know.
The government is like the chair.... the more and more it does for you over time the less and less a person is able to do or remembers how to do, to the point that they can no longer walk, let alone stand
Kick the fucking chair out from under them and the ability to take care of themselves comes back rather fast.
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DelSlow;286574 wrote:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-13-2009/glenn-beck-s-operationEpic Win. lol
saw that on tv.... i lol'd -
out there;286569 wrote:
you may be right... but i have no faith in people.if you want to read something interesting, find "the intellectual bankruptcy of our age" by ayn rand
You have no faith in people, yet you have faith in the government? You will be a good citizen...
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i didn't say that i have faith in the government. what i said was a mockery of joe public, who can't seem to wipe his own nose. there was no sarcasm, just pure disdain for most of the people who live in america.
i said that most americans need a nanny-state because they're too lazy/apathetic/stupid to handle the world on their own. never did i imply that i think such a thing is good.
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DrifterExtreme;286536 wrote:
Chuck remember when i said people are not prioritizing healthcare? If you know it is expensive and you know there is a chance "something big"(injury/disease) could put you deep in debt. then why would it not be a higher priority then say car/housing/etc....?using your exact same argument, couldn't it be said that ANY one persons life/health>anyone's money?
People don't buy insurance to help them stay health, they buy it to protect their assets.
Why don't we hear about a group of Canadians, Japanese, Germans, Swiss, Europeans, etc... BEGGING their governments to go to a private system instead of the inferior system they currently have? Yes, there are a few amongst them who complain, but not in the large numbers that people complain about health insurance costs in this country.
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Trafik Jamz;286647 wrote:
People don't buy insurance to help them stay health, they buy it to protect their assets..Thats how health "insurance" is suppose to work. Unfortunately it's not how it actually works. Most health "insurance" policies pay for some or all of your regular day- to day medical expenses.
Trafik Jamz;286647 wrote:
Why don't we hear about a group of Canadians, Japanese, Germans, Swiss, Europeans, etc... BEGGING their governments to go to a private system instead of the inferior system they currently have? Yes, there are a few amongst them who complain, but not in the large numbers that people complain about health insurance costs in this country.They don't complain because they are socialists. They like big government taking care of them.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;286650 wrote:
Thats how health "insurance" is suppose to work. Unfortunately it's not how it actually works. Most health "insurance" policies pay for some or all of your regular day- to day medical expenses.They don't complain because they are socialists. They like big government taking care of them.
I can agree with you on the socialist comment...that was more of a pot stir than anything on my part.
However, with the cost of even annual exams/physicals being astronomically high (couple hundred $ easily) those with insurance are going to utilize their insurance to help cover the costs, and those who are uninsured are more likely to skip them and go undiagnosed until whatever it is they have is far along and much more costly to cure/treat....then they go on Medicaid or default on their payments to the hospital which isn't good for the hospital, the patient, or you and me....because one way or another we still pay for it....only its more expensive than if we had caught it earlier.
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Trafik Jamz;286652 wrote:
However, with the cost of even annual exams/physicals being astronomically high (couple hundred $ easily) those with insurance are going to utilize their insurance to help cover the costs, and those who are uninsured are more likely to skip them and go undiagnosed until whatever it is they have is far along and much more costly to cure/treat....then they go on Medicaid or default on their payments to the hospital which isn't good for the hospital, the patient, or you and me....because one way or another we still pay for it....only its more expensive than if we had caught it earlier.Using this type of reasoning, shouldn't we force car insurance to cover oil changes and new tires? If someone doesnt have the money to change their tires when they are bald, they could have a blowout and crash and kill themselves or someone else.
Where do we draw the line on personal responsibility?
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;286658 wrote:
Where do we draw the line on personal responsibility?apparently right behind the sign that says love thy neighbor....
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24valvenotak;286661 wrote:
apparently right behind the sign that says love thy neighbor....Damn Mitch, thats two posts in this thread that I don't really follow. :icon_scratch:
So you are equating personal and government responsibility? Maybe I'm reading more into this than is there, but I read this as "you aren't loving your neighbor if you don't want the government to take money from everyone and supply health insurance in return.
This is the other post, I sort of chuckled at it, but I don't follow your point:
Originally Posted by DaveH
*Using that argument, everyone should receive the same food and housing,etc, subsidized by taxes.24valvenotak;286336 wrote:
thats nonsense, we all cant live in a whitehouse!DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;286658 wrote:
Using this type of reasoning, shouldn't we force car insurance to cover oil changes and new tires? If someone doesnt have the money to change their tires when they are bald, they could have a blowout and crash and kill themselves or someone else.Where do we draw the line on personal responsibility?
There are laws against driving with bad tires. Bad tires don't necessarily end in disaster (I've driven on many bad tires that have blown out...none have resulted in accidents). Besides, auto insurance is cheap. Blown motors tend not to directly cause accidents either. What you are asking for is more like saying "why don't health insurance companies pay for toothpaste and deodorant"
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Trafik Jamz;286663 wrote:
Besides, auto insurance is cheap. Blown motors tend not to directly cause accidents either. What you are asking for is more like saying "why don't health insurance companies pay for toothpaste and deodorant"Auto insurance is relatively cheap, because it is actually insurance. Its only used when you have an accident or other major damage.
Health insurance is not really insurance. Its a convoluted savings plan where people throw money into a fund, and then take money back out according to the plan rules to pay for pretty much anything you go to the doctor/dentist for. Its stupid, why pay the insurance company money for a checkup so that they can charge you admin fees and pay the doctor instead of you paying them directly?
How cheap would auto insurance be if it covered day to day stuff like health insurance does? You can pay huge auto insurance premiums and then the insurance can pay for your gas, car wash, oil change, tires, a new turbo,
, etc. Would it be so expensive that 15 percent of the nation couldn't afford it, and we'd need government to supply it?DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;286662 wrote:
Damn Mitch, thats two posts in this thread that I don't really follow. :icon_scratch:So you are equating personal and government responsibility? Maybe I'm reading more into this than is there, but I read this as "you aren't loving your neighbor if you don't want the government to take money from everyone and supply health insurance in return.
This is the other post, I sort of chuckled at it, but I don't follow your point:
Originally Posted by DaveH
Using that argument, everyone should receive the same food and housing,etc, subsidized by taxes.obama wont live in the house across the street from me. you probably wouldnt either. i seriously doubt every american will be endowed with a fenced in home with rooms named after previous presidents and a security detail that could invade and capture botswana.
secondly, the govt already forces you to provide for others in the form of welfare and social security... where is the thread about personal responsibility and saving for your own retirement? why am i paying for you to retire? and why are you allowing me to? speak up dave and right the wrong. the govt is taking from me to make sure you can afford to drag race when your sixty five. i would sleep better knowing that money was spent saving lives and/or bettering those less fortunate, not padding an engineers vacation fund.
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