CD Deck/System help
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tjamz is right, no need to pay that kind of cash. And this is a good way to get to know the car.
After looking over http://www.modernengineuity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1711 I'm wondering if you can simply replace the head unit by splicing into the wires. You might get much better results simply rewiring the whole thing as tapping into the existing amps sounds like it isn't easy.
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More info from Crutchfields site...
"The 90s
90s Mustang As we saw in the 1980s, some 'Stangs in the 90s were equipped with upgraded factory systems that have external amps. If you want the best possible sound, bypass the amps and use your new receiver's power.In 1995, Ford introduced the Mach 460 sound system. The system features three separate amplifiers, driving a total of eight speakers. Four 6"x8" woofers located front and rear drive the bass and mid-bass, with four tweeters, also front and rear, handling the highs. Integration of new equipment into a Mach 460 system can be complicated. New receivers can be installed and connected with the use of a special adapter that allows you to continue to use the existing amps and speakers. Speaker replacement is problematic, since aftermarket 6"x8" speakers are usually full-range speakers. If you're thinking about a complete change of the in-dash receiver and speakers, it's best to rewire directly from the new receiver to the new speakers (or from an aftermarket amplifier to the new speakers).
If your Mustang doesn't have the Mach 460 system, installation is much less complicated. These cars do not have the separate woofer/tweeter speaker set-up that you'll find on the Mach 460-equipped vehicles. You can install 6"x8" speakers front and back, and plenty of aftermarket models are available that offer vastly-improved sound and a direct fit. Some Mustangs without the Mach 460 system (particularly 1996 and up models with cassette) do have amps; your options are similar to what we saw in the 1980s — purchase an adapter or bypass the amp (an easy proposition with a bypass harness. "
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very true, didn't even think about the factory amps, you MIGHT need to do a full rewire to each speaker. The downside to this is that you WILL need crossovers at least on the tweeters in the upper door. I'm not sure if anyone has made a kit that incorporates the factory amps on a mach 460 kit
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And here is that link to the bypass harness which seems to me like an higher priced hi to low output converter. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-6nUFFY8qdZC/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?I=142C4FDK5
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Yeah I think just about everybody will agree a wiring kit is well worth the price.... it makes it so much easy. Also, don't ghetto things, it never pays in the long run (twisting and taping wires, SOLDIER them), buy a nice wire stripper, make it clean.
IF you do have to bypass the amp / crossovers on the tweeters, its a bit more difficult, but you'll be come familiar with reading wiring diagrams in the process.
You can tell the if you've gotten the polairity of a speaker correct, by if it pops / crackles (if its backwards).
Good luck!
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tjamz wrote:
very true, didn't even think about the factory amps, you MIGHT need to do a full rewire to each speaker. The downside to this is that you WILL need crossovers at least on the tweeters in the upper door. I'm not sure if anyone has made a kit that incorporates the factory amps on a mach 460 kitYeah thats what the guys at best buy were saying, something about crossovers and stuff.....i just got confused but yeah i guess it is 8 instead of 6 speakers...CRAP why'd i have to get the mach 460.
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actually, if you wire a speaker backwards it will either
A. Have a noticeable reduction in the amount of bass being produced for larger speakers (one will cancel the other out)
B. Sound "nasal" or unnatural.It's not unheard of in competition stereos to have either the left or right side tweeter wired out of phase due to the differences in distance between the left and right speakers. I could write a 20 page article about this topic alone.
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It's very close to the setup in my Mazda which is equipped with a factory Bose system. In the front you have tweeters at the top of the doors, probably by the side view mirrors. Then below you have some mid range speakers. The tweeter is up high to improve imaging since with higher frequencies it's easier to tell what direction they are coming from. Mids are not as quite as easy but need to be larger and because of this they are general put in the doors, more room. The lows and some fill are handled by the rear speakers since low frequencies are the most omnidirectional.
In the end, if you're looking to simply replace the deck and keep the stock speakers, I say get the deck that Scosche amplifier adapter and follow the directions on the setup .
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to clarify a bit, unless there is a specifically designed circuit to eliminate wiring the speaker backwards, it will still work and sound fine by itself, however you may notice a difference in sound if you have a pair of speakers and one is wired backwards...again...20 page report to explain this in great detail
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tjamz, in competition is imaging measured from the drivers seat or above the center console? I've always wondered myself. Based on what you just said it must be at the drivers seat.
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The last time I judged it was from BOTH the drivers and passengers seats. It's not really "measured" as they don't use instrumentation to determine imagining. It's just the judges ears that determine how well it images. They use the same CD & songs for every vehicle, they are trained to look for certain nuances and cues that should eminate from certain areas of the soundstage in every well built system. The first time I went to IASCA judge training, we were sat down in a sound studio and listened to about $200,000 worth of professional sound equipment to get an idea what we should be looking for. After hearing that, everything you hear is crap. Period.
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mym6 wrote:
The tweeter is up high to improve imaging since with higher frequencies it's easier to tell what direction they are coming from. Mids are not as quite as easy but need to be larger and because of this they are general put in the doors, more room. The lows and some fill are handled by the rear speakers since low frequencies are the most omnidirectional.
Actually this is not entirely true. MANY competition vehicles place tweeters and midranges in the kickpanels to equalize the difference in length between the speakers and your ears. The human ears are EXCELLENT @ determining Left/Right and Front/Rear sounds, however they are not as tuned at up/down.The lower the frequency, the more omni-directional they become. It is still worth it to aim the mids appropriately too, which is why many people install them in the kickpanels for competition. Midbass (80Hz to 250Hz) does not need to be aimed, as it is very omni directional. Midbass drivers are often placed in the door to help establish UFB (up front bass). Extensive measures are taken to ensure that the midbass is in a sealed enclosure within the door to prevent cancellation of any rear waves from the back of the speaker.
For rear fill (unless you are doing a multimedia 5.1 suround system or similar) you really don't need ANY speakers back there. If you do have them, ideally you want to incorporate a slight delay into the circuit and attenuate the signal to the point where you can't even hear them, but you notice when they are gone. Tough to do correctly.
Subwoofers are omni-directional and can be mounted just about anywhere. However you can "load" the system by firing the subs into a corner of the trunk/hatch area. Generally speaking sealed subwoofers are best for a wide variety of music and for basic SPL vehicles as this type of enclosure allows for the highest power input. Bandpass enclosures tend to be louder than most other enclosures, but are less musical. They tend to make all the notes sound the same. Labrynth or Transmission line are very efficient and EXTREMELY musical, but require large enclosures. Horn loaded enclosures are tremendously efficient, but again require very large enclosures and are not well suited for the automotive environment. Ported (bass reflex) enclosures are a good compromise between natural sound and loudness. They are used in the majority of serious SPL competitors on the circuit today. They tend to be a little larger enclosure than sealed, but they have a 3 dB advantage over their sealed counterparts. The downside is that they break up really severely when powered below their F3 point (the point in the sound curve where the sound falls off by 3 decibels below average) so a subsonic filter is almost a must for this type of enclosure.
This ends the lecture for today.
Be prepared for a test tomorrow.
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So they'll have to wire it where my amps are no longer connected or what? If that's the case i think i'll just return the kenwood because i want my stock bass until i can get my real system...
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if there is a kit (and I'm not sure if there is or not) that interfaces with the Mach 460 system you would still be able to keep the deck and utilize factory amps. Its not that you'll necessarily lose the bass (unless you wire it backwards aka out of phase) by using the amplifier that is built into the kenwood headunit, it's just that you will need some sort of crossover to seperate the high frequencies to the tweeters (small speakers) and lower frequencies to the mids (larger speakers). I'm checking my sources to see what I can find for you.
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There should be a kit available. Crutchfield sells one for like $50 that allows you to directly integrate w/ the factory amps
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tjamz wrote:
Actually this is not entirely true. MANY competition vehicles place tweeters and midranges in the kickpanels to equalize the difference in length between the speakers and your ears. The human ears are EXCELLENT @ determining Left/Right and Front/Rear sounds, however they are not as tuned at up/down.The lower the frequency, the more omni-directional they become. It is still worth it to aim the mids appropriately too, which is why many people install them in the kickpanels for competition. Midbass (80Hz to 250Hz) does not need to be aimed, as it is very omni directional. Midbass drivers are often placed in the door to help establish UFB (up front bass). Extensive measures are taken to ensure that the midbass is in a sealed enclosure within the door to prevent cancellation of any rear waves from the back of the speaker.
For rear fill (unless you are doing a multimedia 5.1 suround system or similar) you really don't need ANY speakers back there. If you do have them, ideally you want to incorporate a slight delay into the circuit and attenuate the signal to the point where you can't even hear them, but you notice when they are gone. Tough to do correctly.
Subwoofers are omni-directional and can be mounted just about anywhere. However you can "load" the system by firing the subs into a corner of the trunk/hatch area. Generally speaking sealed subwoofers are best for a wide variety of music and for basic SPL vehicles as this type of enclosure allows for the highest power input. Bandpass enclosures tend to be louder than most other enclosures, but are less musical. They tend to make all the notes sound the same. Labrynth or Transmission line are very efficient and EXTREMELY musical, but require large enclosures. Horn loaded enclosures are tremendously efficient, but again require very large enclosures and are not well suited for the automotive environment. Ported (bass reflex) enclosures are a good compromise between natural sound and loudness. They are used in the majority of serious SPL competitors on the circuit today. They tend to be a little larger enclosure than sealed, but they have a 3 dB advantage over their sealed counterparts. The downside is that they break up really severely when powered below their F3 point (the point in the sound curve where the sound falls off by 3 decibels below average) so a subsonic filter is almost a must for this type of enclosure.
This ends the lecture for today.
Be prepared for a test tomorrow.
Thanks for the lesson! It's been ages since I read up on that stuff and I was doing my best to recite it. And I did phrase it wrong by saying "measure the imaging" and meant to say judging. Anyway, good points
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tjamz wrote:
There should be a kit available. Crutchfield sells one for like $50 that allows you to directly integrate w/ the factory ampsAlright i'll talk to you tonight probably about that hopefully if i get done with work on time.
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I dont understand waht the problem is here...its not hard to wire a kit in...my GSX...everyone on here knows they come with a stereo system with a amp already....it took me about 2 minutes to hook mine up and install it good....although i have installed shit in alot of peoples cars...tjamz must install stereo's and shit reading what he has typed just let himhook it up for you.
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Theres a big difference between the OEM amp used in GSX's and the Mach 460 system, I beleive (and could be wrong) that to wire into the existing amps on a GSX you basically just hook up the speaker wiring plus use a remote turn on lead to power the amp. The Mach 460 is a much more sophisticated process from what I can gather.
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