Michael Vick
-
thrash;177854 wrote:
We're supposed to live under the rule of law, that is, you're supposed to be guilty based on what the written law says, not what popular opinion says about the merits of the case or the specific person in question.People being judged by the court of public opinion, "according to the merits of the case", is essentially mob rule.
Obviously most people disagree with me on the relative importance of human freedom vs animal comfort -- what I'm trying to do is get people to explain that in a way that is rules based and rational.. to form a logically consistent basis for their beleifs. I think it's important to think hard about why you feel strongly about what should and shouldn't be allowed... since its going to send someobdy to prison.
There are federal laws against animal cruelty as well as state laws against dog fights, etc... He allegedly broke those laws and should be punished (fairly) for his actions.
-
tjamz;177858 wrote:
There are federal laws against animal cruelty as well as state laws against dog fights, etc... He allegedly broke those laws and should be punished (fairly) for his actions.Well sure. Just like there are laws against tint, loud exhausts, front plates, speeding, wheel spin, and all kinds of other stuff that we think is generally ok and are always bitching about.
Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean it is applied fairly, or that everyone is happy about it, etc etc. We all know this.
I happen to think that it is ridiculous to go to prison for torturing dogs. I think the guy is disgusting, but I'm not so full of myself that I pretend that what I think is disgusting should be the standard by which others have their freedoms removed. they're not my dogs, and it's not happening at my house. There are a lot of things that I think are disgusting but that I wouldn't put somebody in jail over.
-
thrash;177860 wrote:
Well sure. Just like there are laws against tint, loud exhausts, front plates, speeding, wheel spin, and all kinds of other stuff that we think is generally ok and are always bitching about.Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean it is applied fairly, or that everyone is happy about it, etc etc. We all know this.
I happen to think that it is ridiculous to go to prison for torturing dogs. I think the guy is disgusting, but I'm not so full of myself that I pretend that what I think is disgusting should be the standard by which others have their freedoms removed. **they're not my dogs, and it's not happening at my house. **There are a lot of things that I think are disgusting but that I wouldn't put somebody in jail over.
Yea but its a felony. What don't you get?The bolded parts is what I wanted to see. Yes if he gets convicted of it, he's a felon. If you were holding these ILLEGAL fights, while putting 10's of thousands of dollars on each fight, do you think you should goto jail if you were caught?
-
SmitEvo;177864 wrote:
Thrash you are being ridiculous......That is not my intent.
I am sure you can argue anything at any angle.
I beg to differ.. i will demonstrate via reasoning that this statement is false :icon_rabbit:
More seriously though.. what I'm trying to get at is why people think animal cruelty should be illegal. "It's sick" isn't sufficient, since there are plenty of things i find sick that are perfectly legal.
Murder is illegal because we beleive that humans have inalienable rights (life being one of them.. and note that murder isn't the same as "killing someone".. murder has a specific legal definition).
Do you think animals have the same rights as people? If so, why? If not all animals, which animals? Should plants have those rights also?
If the best anyone can come up with is "it's disgusting when someone hurts puppies, so it should be illegal", that's ... well that's about what I'm expecting, but i am curious if anyone has any more reasoned justification for it.
I appreciate everyone being patient and not flaming me.
-
thrash;177855 wrote:
Anyone that lives in town surely has a problem with squirrels (like I do). Squirrels are a rodent, a pest, etc. In a different town not too far from here, I know a guy that was reported by his neighbors because he was humanely trapping squirrels and releasing them far away from his house. He was told he couldn't do it any more -- even though they were chewing holes in his roof, etc. So now he traps them secretly and drowns them. Is it sick? Sadistic? I don't think the guy enjoys it, but you can be sure that if squirrels were chewing holes in my house (instead of just my garage), I'd be taking corrective actions irrespective of anyone else's feelings on the matter.Yet, it only takes one jackass neighbor and one jackass in the right spot in government and you're in a bad spot if someone gets wise to what you're doing.
There again, squirrles are wild animals. The dogs in question are domestic dogs. (domesticated for pets). Now it almost seems the argumaent is just for arguments sake. I FIRMLY stand by the fact that I THINK he should be punished harshly for his actions.
-
Do animals have the same rights as people? Not all of the same rights, but some of them.
A better analogy to show why your reasoning is flawed is this:
I own my house, I can do what I want with it regardless of what others think. I should be able to burn it down at any time and collect insurance on it since I own it and insurance is there to cover me in the event of fire. Now just because a bunch of lawyers/insurance companies think it is wrong doesn't mean it should be insurance fraud. I didn't hurt anyone. I owned the property. Why is the man always holding me down?!?!?! Just because others think it is immoral to burn down a dwelling for the sole purpose of collecting a check? BS I say!
-
well thrash, thats 2 times ive pointed out its a felony, and 2 times you danced around it.
please dont ask why I think it should be a felony. I dont even care about the dogs, i dont mourn their deaths every day. I feel bad for them, but I dont stop my day to say a prayor for them.
But still, it's a felony, the guys going to federal court...what more do you need?
-
(fwiw, I like this thrash guy, he puts up a good fight)
-
Chuck a typical 2 year old could make this argument. 'Why should dogs be let off easy when humans kill ants every day'
lol wow. its a pretty dumb argument.
-
but he is asking where/how to draw the line and why animals have the rights they do....I like being able to answer the same question 100 different ways, all saying the same thing...why do you think I like to argue about Bush so much?
-
Im not sure who this thrash guy is, but i'm actually getting pissed off reading the shit that he is saying. Im sorry but dogs shouldnt be tortured. There is no fucking justification. Vick should be locked the fuck up. Then he can see what it is like to be tortured when hes in prison getting his fucking ass kicked...and violated.
-
STiSchucky;177889 wrote:
well thrash, thats 2 times ive pointed out its a felony, and 2 times you danced around it.That's because what the law says is irrelevant regarding what is moral, ethical, or just. It's nice when they intersect, but you shouldn't take for granted that they do. Without getting into it, i think we can all agree that just because something is legal or illegal today, doesn't mean that's what the law should say or that it's the right law.
please dont ask why I think it should be a felony.
But that's the whole point of my questions!! Obviously the easy answer to "why should he go to jail?" is "because he broke the law". Duh. But why is that the law in the first place? That's the question I'm trying to get people to talk about.
-
D S ohM;177896 wrote:
Im not sure who this thrash guy is,I'm and old fart with libertarian / quasi-anarchistic political leanings. I think we have too many laws and rules in society, and am willing to question any of them, even if i generally agree with what they're trying to accomplish.
but i'm actually getting pissed off reading the shit that he is saying.
That's not my intent. Please see above. I can separate my own feelings from what should or shoult not be law for the purposes of discussion.
Im sorry but dogs shouldnt be tortured.
Agreed. Which is a big reason why I don't torture them.
There is no fucking justification.
Agreed. But, does everything in life have to be justified? There's no justification for us driving most of the cars we drive...(thankfully its not illegal yet)
Vick should be locked the fuck up
Why? You and I agree that dogs shouldn't be tortured. What I'm wondering is, if its not your dog or my dog, why does that mean we're going to tell other people not to torture dogs either? Why aren't our feelings on this matter simply limited to us not torturing our own dogs? Why do our beleifs about dog torture usurp the property rights of dog owners?
Then he can see what it is like to be tortured when hes in prison getting his fucking ass kicked...and violated.
Wishing torture and who knows what else on a person because of what he did to his own dogs sort of weakens the moral purity of your position
-
all youre going to get from me is that its an inhumane, sick, cruel act to what is considered a domestic, house held animal. If they werent domestic they wouldnt have laws made for them. There are hunting laws I know, but their made for animals that aren't considered pets, another thing you dont seem to grasp.
Btw, I've never heard of anyone drowning, electrocuting or hanging a deer to death, have you?
-
STiSchucky;177899 wrote:
Btw, I've never heard of anyone drowning, electrocuting or hanging a deer to death, have you?electrocuting or hanging a deer would release too much lactic acid making the meat hard to eat...drowning...well, those fuckers are tough, good luck holding ones head under water long enough :icon_geek:
-
Thrash.
Dogs are domesticated, and are animals that are very loyal to humans.
There is a big difference in killing an animal that will devote it's life to please it's owner in the blink of an eye, than an octopus that could give two shits about a human. Dogs and humans have a long lasting connection that have been this way for THOUSANDS of year, and to a lot of dogs are considered family.
Killing IN GENERAL should only be done if it serves a purpose (food, clothing, sick animal). Torturing any animal is wrong. Torturing an animal that is a companion, not just pets of humans, in Americas eyes is very wrong.
I am confused as to why this is so hard for you to see. If you argue it in the sense that they are just animals, I could go as far as to say what is wrong with killing humans? They are animals too! You of course will say "Hey now, you can't go around killing humans!" Which, I agree with, because a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Why not draw it for dogs? For most people, they are considered family.
This is where you say "These dogs aren't part of YOUR family, so it shouldn't matter!"
True, but just because a human has no family or life doesn't mean they should be thrown into death matches.
Point is, in America, we treasure dogs, pure and simple. If you don't like that, there are other countries out there.
Oh, and on a side note of someone who raises/raised various predatory fish, people do fight them, and people have got into a lot of trouble for doing so.
-
I agree with thrash. I have taken a few classes which dedicate a lot of time to arguments exactly like these and I enjoy them. Having said that, this is what was written on the board the first day of class..
There are cartoons depicting children burning ants with magnifying glasses. Burning a person alive is about as cruel as you can get but the value placed on an ant's life is nill. Now if you are going to say that there is no evidence an ant has a "life" and can formulate thoughts, opinions, share feelings etc then you will agree that it is perfectly fine jab a rusty hanger around until a "child" has been aborted since it is proven that their capacity for rational thought does not exist until it has begun development.
those of you who have replied with "he is a sick fucker who should fry" have probably not thought very long and hard about the value placed on creatures lives, the reason certain creatures are protected, and the pathetic excuses wrapped in day time soaps and teary eyed emotions that defend them. I agree a dog should not be tortured. The dog did not harm anyone. Ants do not harm anyone either but we destroy them by the millions for the simple fact we do not enjoy having them around. I dont enjoy my neighbors but i dont have them offed because I do not enjoy their company. Now you could argue that those ants are trespassing on private property and may be removed with necessary force... but if it were a human necessary force may very well land you in prison. I know this is random and fragmented but im in a hurry and id like to hear his response to this.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login