Dyno Results!!
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2k3WRXND wrote:
So if Microsoft stops paying the check, we lose our jobs simple as that. This job will have to suffice until I complete my degree, speaking of which Nick you ever plan on doing that? You've already had a lot of experience, but in today's world experience just isn't enough. If you don't have a piece of paper PROVEN FACT that 75% employers will toss your resume into the garbage.No not really. Being employed, having a resume with a list of experience on it long enough to get me a job just about anywhere suits me fine.
I don't have a degree, probably wont get a degree, and I will continue to get jobs without a degree. If people want degrees so bad, I must just be lucky having worked where I have and where I do for not having a piece of paper saying I studied CS. I studied CS in the real world, and have implemented networks and systems that have worked for years, and will continue to work for years. I dont want anything to do with businesses, I am the guy in the colo facility that makes it work. Not the monkey that tries to tell people what software they need and why they need it.
And my consulting business is starting to get off the ground as well, so hopefully it will be to the point I'm self employed anyways. But I guess my not having a degree is going to keep companies from paying me to do rather large projects for them as a consultant as well...
But what do I know, I've only been doing work for large companies for about 6 years now.
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Been doing my own "partnership" for sometime. I implemented a backoffice solution for Royal Jewlers and now creating an E-Commerce/XML based web service for them. Which is recurring a large amount of revenue for me. There's a big difference between administrating networks and implementing/designing networks. I would never EVER EVER want to administer a network. I see no future for MCSA's/network administrators 5 years from now. ESPECIALLY after our new SQL is launched. The future is in ".NET application development" which I'm learning currently on my own and will be in school this fall. ".NET" is going to expand the future by far, imagine being able to develop, code, and write, ancient legacy programs to completely integrate with numerous solutions such as CRM, Great Plains, and even non MS based products. Companies who have relied off programs written 30 years ago and pay high maint. fees on upkeeping these solutions with high HR costs (IT staffing) can eliminate numerous positions and reduce overhead by introducing new solutions that are more efficient. That's my career goal, partnership with emphasis on development. There will always be a need for development period.
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Nick and I had this discussion a while back, there are THOUSANDS of fucking morons with degree's that can't get around on a computer. Moreover, they PAY for what WE teach ourselves.
Not saying that getting a degree is a waste of time, but recentley, I've run in to many computer "experts"... that really aren't too keen.
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Dangler wrote:
I'm standing at Eide Bailly's technology company now (Techwise) - glad to be out of SEI
You left SEI!? Damn never knew. Well good luck to you and your new job! Eide Bailey is the company my folks use to go through financial investment, but they left them for personal reasons. Don't know specifics but you can take a look on our last account. Greenhills Inc/Clayton Drake industries. What are you doing for them now?
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Jim wrote:
Nick and I had this discussion a while back, there are THOUSANDS of fucking morons with degree's that can't get around on a computer. Moreover, they PAY for what WE teach ourselves.Not saying that getting a degree is a waste of time, but recentley, I've run in to many computer "experts"... that really aren't too keen.
Your absolutely right. Its the just the fact that you WILL BE denied a job if you do not have a degree. Statistically people with degrees are paid more period. There's no arguing it. People have made their own businesses and prospered without a college degree, my folks are living examples. But in today's world that's not a chance I'm willing to take. If you have a degree you always have something to fall back on. Everyone should want to be in business for themselves, in today's capitalistic environment, it pay's to know that you should always be on top. But, in order to succeed in today's environment having a degree is key as it shows commitmment and dedication to the pursuit of higher education. If you can argue the fact that people with college degrees ARE NOT paid more then people with high school education, then I will shut my trap. But I guarentee you'll find more statistics that state otherwise. Alien technology is landing now, and hopefully I'll be lined up there as I have a "shoe in" from my project work at NDSU and a professor of mine. But nothing is stone....good company....but they'll only look at people with degrees (with the exception of line assemb.) Like I stated earlier, if you have a passion to make your own business, more power to you. I just find that its worth my time and money for that little piece of paper, even though I've learned from my own self teachings then NDSU has offered to me in real life situations. But as stated over and over again, I don't like to play against statistics
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2k3WRXND wrote:
Been doing my own "partnership" for sometime. I implemented a backoffice solution for Royal Jewlers and now creating an E-Commerce/XML based web service for them. Which is recurring a large amount of revenue for me. There's a big difference between administrating networks and implementing/designing networks. I would never EVER EVER want to administer a network. I see no future for MCSA's/network administrators 5 years from now. ESPECIALLY after our new SQL is launched. The future is in ".NET application development" which I'm learning currently on my own and will be in school this fall. ".NET" is going to expand the future by far, imagine being able to develop, code, and write, ancient legacy programs to completely integrate with numerous solutions such as CRM, Great Plains, and even non MS based products. Companies who have relied off programs written 30 years ago and pay high maint. fees on upkeeping these solutions with high HR costs (IT staffing) can eliminate numerous positions and reduce overhead by introducing new solutions that are more efficient. That's my career goal, partnership with emphasis on development. There will always be a need for development period.A big difference between administering networks and implementing and designing networks? This coming from someone who has obviously never done either.
Do you realize what it takes to implement and design a network? A knowledge of how it works, what usage is going to be like once it goes live, and 6 months, 1 year, etc down the road. What about security? How is this network going to be more secure than the last one? What about scalability? How am I going to be able to support double or even triple the usage without downtime or having to replace equipment?
It's funny to me that you live in a Microsoft world. You clearly have no idea of how most of the backend stuff works. The internet does not revolve around Microsoft products, although I guess when you cold call businesses and try to sell them software it does. How does being a telemarketer make you feel?
You reading that post straight from your cold call notes or what? When you understand what it takes to make things work just go ahead and let us know. But until then, please spare us the MS Marketing speech. And one other thing the difference between what you perceive as a network administrator (monkey that makes sure users have MS word installed) and what I do are completely different.
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2k3WRXND wrote:
Been doing my own "partnership" for sometime. I implemented a backoffice solution for Royal Jewlers and now creating an E-Commerce/XML based web service for them.That's interesting - their technology re-work has been going on for over 5 years now, its legendary in Fargo and the Great Plains community as a complete *&&^%#%@@. I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole (and yes, I've done more complex implementations than most people have even heard of)
Fvckin machine took my quarter
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Stack your resume against mine Nick, I guarentee I have more documented completed work that's worth mentioning then yourself. I also GUARENTEE with my education completed I have more of a worthwhile asset to any organization period. I'm not doubting that you've implemented networks period. I have setup BEOS, Linux/Apache/ various other kernels since I was 13 years old with Fargocity.com, Red River Net, and PCHertz. I know you have experience with Novell, but thats not gonna get you ANYWHERE. Where is Novell now? Oh yah thats what I thought, gone. Is Microsoft the end all be all solution to networking/backoffice absolutely not. How many Oracle/SAP & Citrix servers have you set up? Can you document them? I would like to see your resume quite frankly. Anyone can start their own business, but If I'm a client I wouldn't TRUST ANYONE without any kind of formal education. Any kid can read their own self help book, tinker around, and start their own business. They are a dime a friggin dozen. Go to a god damn LAN party. If I had a dime for every kid with "their own business" I'd be rich. Like I said, it's that little piece of paper that seperates most people. I plan on being one with that
Speaking of which Nick, do you have ANY certifications? I mean if you don't want to go to school fine. But it'd be in your best interest to recieve some certifications, they are worth the time and money if your at all dedicated to this field. CCNA? MCSE/MCSA? A+ even?
If your looking for books on MCSE/MCSA (including step by step 7 test guide for MCSA) I have them for sale. A+ as well, no documents on CCNA as I am registered for a 6 month crash course at the NTC while I attend NDSU this fall.
Experience helps, but anything to build a resume I'm definately down for, you should think that too. -
Companies who have relied off programs written 30 years ago and pay high maint. fees on upkeeping these solutions with high HR costs (IT staffing) can eliminate numerous positions and reduce overhead by introducing new solutions that are more efficient.
I have to step in and call BS to this claim. We currently are running software written in the early 80's and it costs us very little in terms of yearly support fees and the amount of time I spend a year tending to it. Because support is ending on the product soon we're looking for software that can replace it and in all cases, support fees are at least double what we're paying now not to mention the additional cost in server hardware. Yearly support fees for one software solution we found would have cost us more than double, DOUBLE, my yearly salary. But whatever software is chosen, support fees will be higher, cost of supporting hardware and licensing fees will be higher and I'll still need to be here to support it.
I do agree to an extent that system and network administrators will themselves become "legacy" but not completely. Software runs somewhere and it used by someone, there will always be a need for someone to support end-users, patch servers , replace NICs or what have you. To say software will replace a system/network administrator is wishful thinking.
Lastly, .NET is today what the Pentium was in '93, it too will become irrelevant when something else comes along.
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This post is deleted!
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this thread sucks, goto fargocomputers.com and continue
haha
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I gotta agree w/ nick here. For getting your FIRST job, having a degree is great, for getting a different job NOTHING beats experience. If he has been doing networking, administration, etc... for a number of years he will get hired before the guy who has just come out of college w/ minimal experience (I have no idea about your level of experience Adam, I'm speaking generally here.) I guess you could say I don't have an official degree, I am MECP/EIA certified and I completed every course that Mobile Dynamics offered and I still managed to get a fairly high paying job w/ a very large corporation BASED SOLELY ON MY WORK EXPERIENCE. I never went to school to learn how to pull wiring through ceiling tiles and terminate it into a 120 VAC fire alarm control panel. I didn't learn squat about integrating fire, security and suppresion systems in school. I was never informed of the many NFPA codes that I would have to use in my daily work just to ensure that the fire alarm system meets building codes. I learned all those things on my own, through various work experiences. My opinion is this: With the exception of Doctors and Lawyers the only level of education needed to get a job is a 2 year degree. Otherwise you are probably learning outdated information that will have no real world value once you have completed school. That is why I dropped my computer science major. I was doing more advanced programming when I was in high school for myself than the college courses were offering at the time. I obviously can't say that it is the same now for sure, and some schools do offer more advanced/specialized training than others, but to generalize and say that schooling is the ONLY way to get a good job is complete and total BS. Sure, you might do 4 years of semi-shitty work until you build a rep for yourself, however during those 4 years you are getting paid to learn, rather than paying someone else to teach you AND you will have a ton of OTJ training. Honestly, I never even get asked about my education when I apply for jobs anymore, just about my life experiences.
As for the comment about Microsoft being around forever, that may or may not be true. They may be around for a long time to come, but I think their days of PC dominance are coming to an end as our generation is starting to look to Linux and other OS's as a more stable, reliable, affordable alternative to Windows. I'm pretty sure I bought my last copy of windows w/ XP Pro, my gaming systems are all linux and easily outperform the Windows machine that I am typing on now. Oh, and the fact that nearly zero viruses ever infect Linux machines running Mozilla, I can see many corporations going that route for that reason alone.
/end rant
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that was beautiful
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2k3WRXND wrote:
Stack your resume against mine Nick, I guarentee I have more documented completed work that's worth mentioning then yourself. I also GUARENTEE with my education completed I have more of a worthwhile asset to any organization period. I'm not doubting that you've implemented networks period. I have setup BEOS, Linux/Apache/ various other kernels since I was 13 years old with Fargocity.com, Red River Net, and PCHertz. I know you have experience with Novell, but thats not gonna get you ANYWHERE. Where is Novell now? Oh yah thats what I thought, gone. Is Microsoft the end all be all solution to networking/backoffice absolutely not. How many Oracle/SAP & Citrix servers have you set up? Can you document them? I would like to see your resume quite frankly. Anyone can start their own business, but If I'm a client I wouldn't TRUST ANYONE without any kind of formal education. Any kid can read their own self help book, tinker around, and start their own business. They are a dime a friggin dozen. Go to a god damn LAN party. If I had a dime for every kid with "their own business" I'd be rich. Like I said, it's that little piece of paper that seperates most people. I plan on being one with thatSpeaking of which Nick, do you have ANY certifications? I mean if you don't want to go to school fine. But it'd be in your best interest to recieve some certifications, they are worth the time and money if your at all dedicated to this field. CCNA? MCSE/MCSA? A+ even?
If your looking for books on MCSE/MCSA (including step by step 7 test guide for MCSA) I have them for sale. A+ as well, no documents on CCNA as I am registered for a 6 month crash course at the NTC while I attend NDSU this fall.
Experience helps, but anything to build a resume I'm definately down for, you should think that too.That's funny listing what you've done, I'm not here to get in a pissing match in that, from what Brett posted already I'm not going to believe you.
Now as far as what I know, it's plenty. I have zero certifications, I don't work with Microsoft products, as everything I do is UNIX based, or I convert from windows to UNIX based solutions. As far as large scale projects go, I've worked on enough and worked with enough large companies that me being a "kid" in a business envrionment is non existent. I have no need for a CCNA, I have dealt with larger enterprise equipment in full production environments than that test can even begin to cover.
And the novell claim where did you pull that out of your ass? I have done nothing, will do nothing, and have never wanted to do anything with Novell.
Who was the network engineer when you were with rrnet? I worked there for two years and met just about everyone that had worked there at one time.
Now you go ahead and enjoy your college education, and your telemarketing job, and when you do get a high paying pimp computer job maybe someday you can get a frontmount for real too.
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Ok, to make Fitzy happy, I WILL be getting my dyno time this weekend...all day saturday.
there, thread back on topic again
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Experience only works for some jobs. Im an apprentice plumber at grants michanical and in the time ive been there I have found out that in the business of Apprentices, Journey men, and Masters you dont get anywhere with Experience. We have a 37 year old dude there that has been plumbing for 20years and he is a first year apprentice... why? Well because he never went to school or took any apprenticeship clases. You cannot advance in a majority of fields without schooling. I can go from a $10 an hour laborer to an $18 an hour 4th yr apprentice to a $25 an hour journey men to a $50+ an hour master ( and those are based on what grants pays masters can start their own business. ) But im not going to be able to do that with 25 years of experience... I have to take classes, read the code books, run jobs, study my ass off , and take tests before any state will consider me as a journeymen or master.
Point being... Some jobs may accept Experience, but a majority dont. Unless of course you would like to flip burgers the rest of your life... Im sure doing that for 20years would land you a job at any Mc Donalds in the world... of course any high school drop out can work there anyway.
Peace!
Flowcus -
Actually experience and a degree is the best way to get a nice job. If you have a degree and no experience it is tough to find a job. Last time i remembered to be a master you needed a bunch of hours of experience to get there plus the schooling. Each field is different and depends. I am sure GSR will do fine without a degree because of his experience. Bottom line who really cares this thread still sucks.
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ok...back off topic we go again, but I'm game.
I agree that in order to advance you need to either brush up on your skills or get further education. Anyone who is not constantly educating themselves about their job is doing themselves a big disservice IMHO. Some jobs require additional training, some will require some certification. I am going back to school this fall to get my masters in Business Management, and my company is paying for all of it. There are advantages to getting some sort degree, no doubt. Especially if it is a specialized field or one that requires certification before you can advance yourself. But not everyone has to do this to make it in this world. The two richest men in the world dropped out of college for gods sake, theres exceptions to both sides and I'm not encouraging anyone to NOT get a degree.
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