Is GOD real?
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2wheeler;199958 wrote:
Right, but he was asking the question of me. I don't follow the book. If what I do and what the book says to do are the same thing, to me, that is coincidence. I didn't consider WWJD in whatever decision I made. As far as my friend....like I said, he does what the book says. I don't know anyone, who follows the bible like he does. This include you and Matt.As far as my feelings on sin, I don't think I am appropriately getting my point across to you two. I think it would have to be a face to face discussion to be clear about it.
I just find it interesting why you think your the expert on knowing if someone follows the Bible more than another. Your co-worker could be running a porn ring site online and as far as you know he's a Christian at work. It's your interpretation of the Bible and what a Christian should be is where your basing everything. What binds all Christians together is the fact that we all are sinners and need a Savior. How we live our life is a reflection on how deep that commitment to our Savior is. We try and follow the Bible out of gratitude on what he did for us...ie die on the cross and take our punishment. Now because of that God looks at us as sinless because of the shed blood of his son. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
As far as sin goes it's simple. All sin in God's eye's are the same, therefore you break one commandment you are guilty of all. End of story.
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2wheeler;199958 wrote:
Right, but he was asking the question of me. I don't follow the book. If what I do and what the book says to do are the same thing, to me, that is coincidence. I didn't consider WWJD in whatever decision I made. As far as my friend....like I said, he does what the book says. I don't know anyone, who follows the bible like he does. This include you and Matt.You say he does what the book says.... HOW DO YOU KNOW?
THAT is what Matt was asking you, what are you referencing when you say he walks the walk? If you don't know what the bible says and means, how could you possibly come to a conclusion? That is why he was asking you what you consider sin to be. FYI, I'm not bashing your friend at all, I don't know him, I'm sure he's a great guy. I hope he follows the bible as well as you think he does, and hopefully gives you some good advice.
Let me know when you read Romans and if it helps. The link I gave you is in a modern translation so it's a very easy read.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;199975 wrote:
Let me know when you read Romans and if it helps. The link I gave you is in a modern translation so it's a very easy read.I read your link, and it really didn't clear anything up. This is all information that I have previously heard. Here is the part of it that actually interests me.
He will judge everyone according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
This is a part of religion that I have a problem with.
Let's take person "A": Lives a nice, quiet, clean life. Let's just say, he lives a life like you do(Just to eliminate the subjectiveness of my adjectives). He marries, adopts 3 children because he would rather give these children a home/family rather than bring more children into the world. He is very kind to everyone. He lets everyone live how they want to and he does the same. Just your general decent person. He does not believe in god.
Person "B": Not a very nice guy. Your general d-bag. Steals when given the chance. Ends up killing 2 people and going to jail. Has always legitimately, genuinely, believed in god. Asks for forgiveness from god for his sins.
When they both come before god for judgment, person B goes to heaven, person A goes to hell.
Is this correct, or not?
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2wheeler;199984 wrote:
I read your link, and it really didn't clear anything up. This is all information that I have previously heard. Here is the part of it that actually interests me.He will judge everyone according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
This is a part of religion that I have a problem with.
Let's take person "A": Lives a nice, quiet, clean life. Let's just say, he lives a life like you do(Just to eliminate the subjectiveness of my adjectives). He marries, adopts 3 children because he would rather give these children a home/family rather than bring more children into the world. He is very kind to everyone. He lets everyone live how they want to and he does the same. Just your general decent person. He does not believe in god.
Person "B": Not a very nice guy. Your general d-bag. Steals when given the chance. Ends up killing 2 people and going to jail. Has always legitimately, genuinely, believed in god. Asks for forgiveness from god for his sins.
When they both come before god for judgment, person B goes to heaven, person A goes to hell.
Is this correct, or not?
If person A hear's the good news and rejects it, doesn't acknowledge he is a sinner and needs a Savior then person A will go to hell even though he was a "good" person.
If person B lives a terrible life and at some point repents and turns from his/her wicked ways and acknowledges that he needs a Savior then he will go to heaven.
In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says "For it is by grace you have been saved , through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by WORKS, so that no one can boast.
I would think it is a good thing to know that it doesn't matter how bad you are in your life time that there is always hope for you.
Now if person B repents and then continues to do those bad deeds then one would have to wonder if he was serious of repenting.
You can't get to heaven by doing good works. "For I am the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father by by me" = Christ is the only way.
Ethan, I am really sorry that I don't meet your expectation of what a true Christian should be. I'll work on that.
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fallguy;199987 wrote:
Ethan, I am really sorry that I don't meet your expectation of what a true Christian should be. I'll work on that.Your response pretty much sums up why I would not want to be a part of an organization that would treat person A like that.
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God is real and CMK is proof he has a sense of humor.
Seriously though. To say something or someone does or doesn't exist without proof is basically where a persons beliefs or faith comes into play, just like our choice in cars, music, clothes and what not, you could say it's personal preference. I personally want to believe there's an afterlife and maybe our time spent here on earth is nothing but a test to see if we are truly worthy to move on to a higher plane of existence. Maybe that's why some people are meant to suffer more than others and the truly gifted are those that society deems inappropriate. Maybe we die not because it's our gods will but simply because we all eventually learn to accept death. It's speculation at best, but I for one do believe there is a higher power and at the same time I believe in evolution because of facts that have been set before me, so I don't know where that puts me on the the grand scale of things. I've always just tried to approach things with a very open mind.
Sterling Archer: Oh my god! You killed a hooker!
Cyril Figgis: Call girl!
Sterling Archer: No Cyril! When they're dead they're just hookers!
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2wheeler;199983 wrote:
Ok, and who's butthurt now?My butt is fine. lol
2wheeler;199983 wrote:
Not an expert at all. All I can take into consideration is the time I've spent with all 3 of you. From those times, conversations, and experiences, there is no comparison.Seems like a personal cheap shot there, no? I didn't ask what you thought of Matt or myself compared to your co-worker.
You said that this guy does what the bible says and "walks the walk". I asked how do you know this? You don't seem to have a grasp on basic biblical ideas like sin, etc. So how do you know if he's following what the bible says? Thats all I'm asking.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;200009 wrote:
You said that this guy does what the bible says and "walks the walk". I asked how do you know this? You don't seem to have a grasp on basic biblical ideas like sin, etc. So how do you know if he's following what the bible says? Thats all I'm asking.Because I have FAITH in my opinion. I BELIEVE what I've said is correct. lolz. I'm a Christian now. ROFL
Like I said, this is way to much to post back and forth about. It would have to be a face to face conversation to get my point across.
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Dave, as far as a personal cheap shot.....that was never intended. What you quoted was exactly what I have to work with......my time spent with you, Matt and Doug. I have nothing else to compare with. If all three of you are christians, great. From what you and Matt have said, there are no different levels of christianity. Fine. Then all three of you are the same, no better, no worse. From someone who is not christian, outside looking in, its is easy for me to create levels of "how christian someone is" according to what I see and what I want to believe. That's my opinion and I am more than justified to have it.
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Originally Posted by fallguy
Ethan, I am really sorry that I don't meet your expectation of what a true Christian should be. I'll work on that.
2wheeler;200006 wrote:
Your response pretty much sums up why I would not want to be a part of an organization that would treat person A like that.I think I get it now, there is no humor allowed when discussing religious things! I guess I wasn't aware of that. Or maybe you missed the smilie?
Seriously.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
this might get a bit off topic
at the ripe old age of 22, i can say i have not experienced that life changing moment.... like the one that make me really believe. i do however believe that there is a god, and an afterlife. i do however also believe in evolution, more so than god. i just cant get it past me the proof of evolution...maybe it all fits in somewere, will we ever find out in our lifetime?.. no,will our childrens children ever find out why we are here?... perhaps not....
have you ever gazed up at the sky and just thought about what you see? billions of stars, some suns like ours that may possibly have planets just like ours....its just stupid to think that theres not life somewere else.... perhaps its not huminoid like us, but just life itself.... it just make you really think about who we are, and what part do we have here just on this planet... it just really makes you think when you cant even begin to imagine whats out there and how big it might be.... and how it was formed... what/who formed it...but you can just completely disregard that last part if you think the earth is flat... sorry if i got off topic, its 4am, im tired and just came in from starring at the stars outside :rolleyes:
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matt, i think we're possibly on the same page regarding the acceptance of the christ, but i'm not yet sure...
my perspective has always been that one achieves salvation through acceptance (which implies belief) and actions. simply lip-servicing the gospel and scripture may be good enough for the masses, but the real way into heaven (keep in mind, i'm undecided as to whether a heaven exists, but that's another matter) is through the way one lives their life. the atheist that lives a life valuing other people as people, not things, trying their best to get along without stepping on toes and offering what they can to help otheres is just as valuable as the devout believer who lived a similar life.
so what if person A went to church "religiously" (pun intended
) and person B steadfastly refused? in the end, each treated their fellow man with decency and respect, doing what they could to help others in need. when i use the approach of "what would jesus do", i mean that literally, what would he do in this situation? the real world emulation and practice of christ's teachings. computer science doesn't guarantee an understanding of hardware trouble-shooting; michael schenker doesn't need to understand how the electronics of his guitars, amps and effects work; michael schumacher doesn't necessarily need to know how to change oil; etc.
the real test isn't in whether or not one believes, it's the actions that define their lives.
words and belief are dead without action. i don't remember where, but i know that is a paraphrase of some part of the new testament. i'm no expert on what is in the new testament, though i have done some exploring. -
i believe in god but when you hear other people's point of views that sound more logical (dont know if thats the right word im looking for) it kinda makes you think. as you were raised with what ever religion you are, they told you there beliefs and you followed them and were raised to believe it. but when you get older and learn more about science and what not its kinda hard to believe one can make all of this. i also believe there are living organisms outside earth.
1999 civic ex - 472whp 19psi e85
2000 civic SiR - jdm sickness
1988 chevy s10 blazer - lowrider
1979 lifted fullsize chevy - mud truck -
2wheeler;200011 wrote:
Because I have FAITH in my opinion. I BELIEVE what I've said is correct. lolz. I'm a Christian now. ROFL.Your response pretty much sums up why I would not want to be a part of an organization that would treat a person like that.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
99civic;200031 wrote:
i believe in god but when you hear other people's point of views that sound more logical (dont know if thats the right word im looking for) it kinda makes you think. as you were raised with what ever religion you are, they told you there beliefs and you followed them and were raised to believe it. but when you get older and learn more about science and what not its kinda hard to believe one can make all of this. i also believe there are living organisms outside earth.I believe that when you use the Bible and science together to explain things it only makes the most sense. I believe it takes more faith to believe in evolution since nobody was around when the universe was created. The creationist has a way to go back in time to see how everything happened and that is the written word of God, who was there at the beginning. Both evolutionists and creationist all have the same evidence. They both use the same fossil layers etc. "in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions." They are both arguging about the same evidence but looking at it through different glasses.
I used to think that the earth and universe was billions of years old too, but I only learned that from what I was spoon fed in school and in text books. Until I started really looking into the Bible and opposing views did I realize that the Bible does explain alot of what we are seeing today. -
DaveH;200016 wrote:
Originally Posted by fallguy
Ethan, I am really sorry that I don't meet your expectation of what a true Christian should be. I'll work on that.I think I get it now, there is no humor allowed when discussing religious things! I guess I wasn't aware of that. Or maybe you missed the smilie?
Seriously.
My bad. I quoted the wrong quote. I was referring to the Person A/Person B answer.Please excuse my sin.....god did.
Oops....forgot......no humor allowed.
Seriously. :smiliewithmiddlefingersoutandkickingasupra:
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fallguy;200040 wrote:
I believe that when you use the Bible and science together to explain things it only makes the most sense. I believe it takes more faith to believe in evolution since nobody was around when the universe was created. The creationist has a way to go back in time to see how everything happened and that is the written word of God, who was there at the beginning. Both evolutionists and creationist all have the same evidence. They both use the same fossil layers etc. "in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions." They are both arguging about the same evidence but looking at it through different glasses.
I used to think that the earth and universe was billions of years old too, but I only learned that from what I was spoon fed in school and in text books. Until I started really looking into the Bible and opposing views did I realize that the Bible does explain alot of what we are seeing today.
heres the thing.... until i have that life changing eye opening moment... its going to be hard for me to truely believe... i want to believe, but until i have one of those moments... its just going to be hard
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