*2008 Presidential Thread* McCain vs Obama *Poll*
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thrash;221583 wrote:
There is a lot of sympathy towards terrorists, jihad, etc, amongst "moderate" muslims.While it is certainly true that only a small percentage of muslims are actually blowing shit up, what is disturbing is how few of them will condemn Hamas or other extremist groups. The fact of the matter is that it's truly hard to get a "read" on the silent majority. So many of these people are being recruited and trained through normal mosques using prominent leaders that it's hard to imagine more moderate muslims don't know about it.
Even so called "moderate" muslims in the US, when polled, suggest in alarming numbers that they'd like to see the US constitution revoked and Sharia law instituted. CAIR and wackos like Keith Ellison (fuck you again, Minnesota!) are onboard with that sentiment, btw.
I'm not sure I'd mention Pakistan as some gleaming beacon of Muslim reasonableness. Our best guess is that Bin Laden is hiding out in Pakistan right now. Who's protecting him there?
After the assasination of benazir bhutto, theres little support for extremeist groups by the people.
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That's encouraging to hear regarding pakistan, but it doesn't explain Palestine, CAIR, or "moderate" muslim populations anywhere else in the world.
I've got a lot I could say here but it's kind of OT. I'll close with the following two points:
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pretending that hardcore Islamic societies can mesh well with western style individual freedoms, and that there isn't a tendency towards barbarism and violence is a monumental head-in-the-sand act
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it is surprising to me how vigorously the left tries to tiptoe around offending Muslim "culture" in Mid-east/mid-asian nations with totally barbaric laws and customs. It's strange to see progressives defending any leader or culture where:
-- women who are raped get put in prison for being promiscuous
-- homosexuals are killed
-- the president denies that homosexuality exists in his country
-- young girls have their genitals mutilated
-- women are not allowed to drive, be seen in public with other men, etc
Apparently the left thinks this stuff is OK as long as it's not a white republican committing the acts? Or that any foreign political leader opposed to GWB is a good guy?
Anyway, back on topic: Could Obama be the anti-christ? He's wildly loved by the media, he's got kind of a strange background, he promises all things to all people, he came out of nowhere into political prominence...
Discuss
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thrash;221589 wrote:
That's encouraging to hear regarding pakistan, but it doesn't explain Palestine, CAIR, or "moderate" muslim populations anywhere else in the world.I've got a lot I could say here but it's kind of OT. I'll close with the following two points:
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pretending that hardcore Islamic societies can mesh well with western style individual freedoms, and that there isn't a tendency towards barbarism and violence is a monumental head-in-the-sand act
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it is surprising to me how vigorously the left tries to tiptoe around offending Muslim "culture" in Mid-east/mid-asian nations with totally barbaric laws and customs. It's strange to see progressives defending any leader or culture where:
-- women who are raped get put in prison for being promiscuous
-- homosexuals are killed
-- the president denies that homosexuality exists in his country
-- young girls have their genitals mutilated
-- women are not allowed to drive, be seen in public with other men, etc
Apparently the left thinks this stuff is OK as long as it's not a white republican committing the acts? Or that any foreign political leader opposed to GWB is a good guy?
Anyway, back on topic: Could Obama be the anti-christ? He's wildly loved by the media, he's got kind of a strange background, he promises all things to all people, he came out of nowhere into political prominence...
Discuss
The whole israeli-palestine shit is ridiculous, on both sides IMO, I have a hard time believing one side is "better" then the other because they both commit atrocities.
Your describing what sounds like hardcore taliban-ish practices (and your specific references to Iran), which are def. not the norm in all islamic society. I doubt you'll find anybody that thinks ahmadinejad (and his policies) is a good guy, however, the policies of particular dictators and extremists should not be used to classify an entire religion or population.
Ok, so if we can agree that Isreali-Palestine shit that has been goign on for 2000 years is hopeless, that leaves us with:
Iran
Taliban / Talibanish style ExtremistsThen take into consideration:
SE Asian Countires - Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Phillipines (Where islam has been integrated and practiced alongside other religions for hundreds of years)
China's large muslim population
Pro-Western policies of oil exporting countries and other US allies - Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia
Easter European Countires
Its strange to group normal islamic people in with the extremists, becuase for the most part, muslims across the world do not directly clash in ideological values with westerners. Look at how SE asian countries have adapted islam to fit thier needs (with a more liberal view), and how the oil exporting countires bend the values of thier religion to be the ultimate consumers.
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thrash;221589 wrote:
-- young girls have their genitals mutilatedThis was one of the only issues I had with your last post...that and Obama being the anti-christ...he may be left wing, but anti-christ is pushing it IMO.
I'm assuming you are speaking of "female circumcision" in which case the hood of the clitoris is removed...often leading to way more problems than it's worth including decreased sexual pleasure.
One could make the argument that 90% of all young boys in this country are mutilated as well by having male circumcision performed....which results in....decreased sexual pleasure.
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In Malaysia christians who attempt to proseltyze are killed by the government. Not secretly -- it's the law. Christian missionaries who go to malaysia have to jump through a bunch of hoops and have a solid cover story.
The FGM I was referring to was in Egypt. Should you be interested, you can read "Woman at Point Zero", written by an egyptian prostitute who talked about the structural mysoginy in that society.
That brings us to Saudi Arabia. If SA wasn't an important oil ally and foothold int he middle east, we'd have bombed them into the stone age. Where do you think OBL is from? Where do you think a huge chunk of terrorist financing comes from? Where do you think Wahhabiism has its powerbase concentrated? How is women's rights in Saudi Arabia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia
the Saudi government is the ninth most authoritarian regime in the world
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The Saudi legal system prescribes capital punishment or corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for certain crimes such as murder, robbery, rape, drug smuggling, homosexual activity, and adultery. The courts may impose less severe punishments, such as floggings, for less serious crimes against public morality such as drunkenness.[13] Murder, accidental death and bodily harm are open to punishment from the victim's family. Retribution may be sought in kind or through blood money. The blood money payable for a woman's accidental death is half as much as that for a man.[14] The main reason for this is that, according to Islamic law, men are expected to be providers for their families and therefore are expected to earn more money in their lifetimes. The blood money from a man would be expected to sustain his family, for at least a short time. Honor killings are also not punished as severely as murder. This generally stems from the fact that honor killings are within a family, and done to compensate for some dishonorable act committed
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Saudi Arabia is also the only country in the world where women are banned from driving on public roads
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The Government views its interpretation of Islamic law as its sole source of guidance on human rights.
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A Saudi blogger, Fouad al-Farhan, was jailed for five months in solitary confinement in December, 2007, without charges, after criticizing Saudi religious, business and media figuresI can't beleive someone would defend the Shar'ia based legal system in Saudi Arabia?
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tjamz;221593 wrote:
Obama being the anti-christ...he may be left wing, but anti-christ is pushing it IMO.Well, i'm just throwing it out there. He's loved by the media and by people, and he came out of nowhere. It has little to do with his policies, although it's clear he think's hes going to transform the US and the world. He's acting like a shoe-in for the presidency. It looks like other people already had the same idea:
http://barackobamaantichrist.blogspot.com/
I'm assuming you are speaking of "female circumcision" in which case the hood of the clitoris is removed...often leading to way more problems than it's worth including decreased sexual pleasure.
One could make the argument that 90% of all young boys in this country are mutilated as well by having male circumcision performed....which results in....decreased sexual pleasure.
Absolutely -- I was referring to FGM. The point you bring up is a fair one regarding male circumcision in the US.
I'd respond by saying that it is losing favor in the US (we didn't do it to our son, btw), it happens way less than 90% of the time now, and that unlike FGM, male circumcision is done on infants, not near-adolescent girls.
I think you also have to look at it in a cultural context: Women are "circumcised" as a way to subjugate them -- they're thought of as dirty creatures undeserving of pleasure. With boys in the US circumcision is a relatively recent (1950s, iirc) thing, and at the time it was thought that it was painelss for the baby and had distinct hygeine benefits. Now as those opinions are falling out of favor, so too is the practice.
If you didn't take issue with the other points in my post, I think that says more than the rebuttal you had to my FGM comment does.
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Oh, speaking of "moderate" pakistan and western compatibility:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\06\08\story_8-6-2008_pg7_14
Pakistan will ask the European Union countries to amend laws regarding freedom of expression in order to prevent offensive incidents such as the printing of blasphemous caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) and the production of an anti-Islam film by a Dutch legislator, sources in the Interior Ministry told Daily Times on Saturday.
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They said that the delegation would also tell the EU that if such acts against Islam are not controlled, more attacks on the EU diplomatic missions abroad could not be ruled out.So yeah. "Do away with freedom of expression... or else".
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thrash;221598 wrote:
Oh, speaking of "moderate" pakistan and western compatibility:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\06\08\story_8-6-2008_pg7_14
So yeah. "Do away with freedom of expression... or else".
There's a big difference between the moderate people, and the leaders in power (illegitimacy of musharraf); also theres alot more to that story then that article provides.
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I dont think there is a muslim society out there that doesnt rule their people with an Iron fist and have human rights as they should. Its just part of the religion. These people arent going to change. Maybe there is a few. Turkey and Kurdistan. Kurdistan is apart of northern Iraq. Turkey is by far way more advanced at technology, economy, and human rights. But thats really it. Everywhere else is stoneages behind on the human rights and barbaric practices.
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Rexwagon;221607 wrote:
I dont think there is a muslim society out there that doesnt rule their people with an Iron fist and have human rights as they should. Its just part of the religion. *<u>**These people arent going to change. **</u>*Maybe there is a few. Turkey and Kurdistan. Kurdistan is apart of northern Iraq. Turkey is by far way more advanced at technology, economy, and human rights. But thats really it. Everywhere else is stoneages behind on the human rights and barbaric practices.So, then what is the solution for dealing with them? There are only 5 solutions:
- Find some common ground, and at least attempt to have peace.
- Let them do their thing while we do ours.
- Force them to bow to our demands (not likely)
- Bow to their demands (less likely than #3)
- Kill them all.
#2 & #5 seem to be the easiest methods as #3 & #4 will never happen, and I have a better chance at being the next Pope than #1 happening.
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There are a large # of well connected groups working on #4. Don't be so sure it won't happen. As American discomfort with offending people and warfare continues, and as CAIR and similar groups become more skillful at manipulating the media and the american legal system, #4 will continue to develop.
Be vigilant. There are lots of well connected wealthy people that have a vested interest in destroying the things you and I and most Americans like about America. Our current crop of politicians aren't helping by playing the bread and circuses card and keeping us distracted.
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Obama is the anti-christ.........period......
Doesn't the Rev. Jeremiah Wright thing perty much sum it up?!?!?!?
McCain is left wing republican..... weak
Ron Paul for me
Makes me sad Operation Chaos is over..... sad
I have never spoke my political views on this forum till now, so now you all know i hate hippies
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thrash;221595 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia> Saudi Arabia is also the only country in the world where women are banned from driving on public roadsAt least they got one thing right.
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Rexwagon;221733 wrote:
Pretty sure Iraq is too. It may not be on the law books but its definatley not socially excepted. Out of my two years I spent there, I never seen a woman drive. Never.Good.
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