Obama and Bush not so far apart...

DelSlow

God i would LOVE to see Chuck and Torbs in PERSON debating this. See how knowledgeable and what you actually do know without going to Google or Glenbeck.com (or the show). Id have a feeling Chuck would destroy you.

PS Torbs, do you even know who/what Karl Marx is...quick...Google it real quick and find out.

SmitEvo

DelSlow;242319 wrote:
God i would LOVE to see Chuck and Torbs in PERSON debating this. See how knowledgeable and what you actually do know without going to Google or Glenbeck.com (or the show). Id have a feeling Chuck would destroy you.

PS Torbs, do you even know who/what Karl Marx is...quick...Google it real quick and find out.

That was funny....

Torbs will be missing for a while though...I am sure he is too cheap to unban himself.

? This user is from outside of this forum

SmitEvo;242320 wrote:
That was funny....

Torbs will be missing for a while though...I am sure he is too cheap to unban himself.

Yup....I shoulda been taxed more heavily, I can still afford to ban him.

24valvenotak

MisterCMK;242318 wrote:
The government will help.

they already did. they made up more money out of thin air to pay for their mistakes. all that needs to be done now is to pray extra hard... which means its in your hands now.

Sweet-WRX-Lovin

I would just like to laugh at all the anti socialism statements and the cries against government control. Do you enjoy having a fire department and what they can do for us? The protection you receive /are supposed to receive from our law enforcement departments? How about our city water and sewage systems? This country is a mix of capitalism and socialism and has been for a long time. Where people draw the line sometimes a purely laughable. Basic health care should be there when people need it just like fire departments. A country needs to look after its citizen's best interests, and while that can be a scary thing based on who's making the policies, that is why we are also democratic. Or at least are supposed to be.

And hell yes legalize some pot, tax the crap out of it and end this "this drug is bad, but these are not" bullshit.

Parker

tjamz;242317 wrote:
Yes, I know this Brian....first you bitch that I write too long of posts, then I'm not detailed enough...but think about this Brian...where is the incentive to start a business? You are still being taxed if you do (or your business is anyway). So the answer is NOT to start a business...right?!?!? (I kid, I kid)

the answer is....

why start a business if you are going to be taxed to shit if the business actually goes somewere (starts making money)... so yes, under the nobama plan... the answer is yes, don't start a business....

not like it matters.....

he's not going to win anyway....

thrash

I think legalizing pot is a great idea, and so does the only presidential candidate worth voting for: Ron Paul.

It's not crazy. I don't think it will fix the economy, but it's a small step in the right direciton on a number of fronts. You can read Ron Paul's statements on why, as he speaks fairly eloquently on the matter. Key things I can think of:

Keeps harmless people out of jail, leaving room for real criminals who are currently getting released early
Drug enforcement, in practice, is HORRIBLY biased against urban blacks. The last thing black chidlren need is to continue growing up with fathers who are in jail instead of at home, especially for BS "crimes" that white people NEVER go to jail over. What is that teaching black youth?
The DEA costs a ton of money and can violate due process with considerable ease. If you are suspected of a drug charge your property can be seized and auctioned before you ever have a trial. You will NOT get it back and you will not be compensated. This is a clear violation of the constitution but the "drugs are baddddd" crowd hates drugs more than it loves America.

PS: I am as boring as straightedge as they get -- I've never so much as had a sip of alcohol. I'm certainly not some washed out kid quoting high times as gospel truth. The facts are undeniable -- our demonization of pot does considerably more real harm than any hypothetical good it does. Freedom means people are free to do things that I think are stupid as long as they don't violate my rights.

PSiedTSi

Thank you. I realize it won't wholly fix the economy, but like you said it's a step in the right direction. Above the ability for the gov't to potentially profit from it, it would also save a ton of spending(like you said).

Althought Paul is obviously the biggest advocate of it, Obama has atleast conceded he is for medical use(which is a great step forward, at this point), saying there "no difference between that and morphine when it comes to just giving people relief from pain". He understands the differences in potency(which a lot of conservatives do not), which is a main hang up for a lot of uninformed(or misinformed?) Americans.

DaveH

Sweet-WRX-Lovin;242521 wrote:
I would just like to laugh at all the anti socialism statements and the cries against government control. Do you enjoy having a fire department and what they can do for us? The protection you receive /are supposed to receive from our law enforcement departments? How about our city water and sewage systems? This country is a mix of capitalism and socialism and has been for a long time. Where people draw the line sometimes a purely laughable. Basic health care should be there when people need it just like fire departments. A country needs to look after its citizen's best interests, and while that can be a scary thing based on who's making the policies, that is why we are also democratic. Or at least are supposed to be.

Schultzy throws out some good points, altho slightly twisted. The fire dept and police are there for emergencies, and everyone is forced to pay for them.... altho they are NOT federal government agencies, they are local.

I did think about your post quite a while and it made me think about the possibility that the govt could be involved and actually be useful, sort of like the fire and police dept. I think this would actually get people from the left and right on board (I could be wrong). What the govt could do is set up an emergency medical fund that everyone is forced to pay into (ie: taxes). Everyone would be responsibly for their day to day doctor bills, but if you get a catastrophic illness or a major injury the Government pool (the fire dept) kicks in. This way you could buy health insurance if you wanted, and it would be relatively cheap because it wouldn't be responsible for terminal illness or other very expensive treatment, etc. Or better yet, you could simply eliminate health insurance and just pay as you go, without worrying about losing the house if you get really sick. The pay-as-you-go idea really would make people pay attention to what you are getting for your $$, which is really lacking today. Prices are crazy right now because people have insurance and don't care what stuff costs.

Anyway, just some ideas bouncing around in my head..... I haven't thought it through very hard but on the surface it seems a lot better than "universal healthcare" that a lot of folks seems to want.

PSiedTSi

IMO, Universal health care doesn't really fit here...something like what you were getting at Dave seems a lot more feasible. You hit the nail on the head about people not knowing what they are getting for their money. Medical services(drug companies, doctors) can charge what they want for their services because most won't take people without insurance...and they know insurance just pays...

? This user is from outside of this forum

DaveH;242697 wrote:
Schultzy throws out some good points, altho slightly twisted. The fire dept and police are there for emergencies, and everyone is forced to pay for them.... altho they are NOT federal government agencies, they are local.

I did think about your post quite a while and it made me think about the possibility that the govt could be involved and actually be useful, sort of like the fire and police dept. I think this would actually get people from the left and right on board (I could be wrong). What the govt could do is set up an emergency medical fund that everyone is forced to pay into (ie: taxes). Everyone would be responsibly for their day to day doctor bills, but if you get a catastrophic illness or a major injury the Government pool (the fire dept) kicks in. This way you could buy health insurance if you wanted, and it would be relatively cheap because it wouldn't be responsible for terminal illness or other very expensive treatment, etc. Or better yet, you could simply eliminate health insurance and just pay as you go, without worrying about losing the house if you get really sick. The pay-as-you-go idea really would make people pay attention to what you are getting for your $$, which is really lacking today. Prices are crazy right now because people have insurance and don't care what stuff costs.

Anyway, just some ideas bouncing around in my head..... I haven't thought it through very hard but on the surface it seems a lot better than "universal healthcare" that a lot of folks seems to want.

Sounds somewhat familiar Dave...

**[B]Make Health Insurance Work for People and Businesses - Not Just Insurance and Drug Companies.
**

[/B]

Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions so all Americans regardless of their health status or history can get comprehensive benefits at fair and stable premiums.
Create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide affordable health insurance to their employees.
Lower costs for businesses by covering a portion of the catastrophic health costs they pay in return for lower premiums for employees.
Prevent insurers from overcharging doctors for their malpractice insurance and invest in proven strategies to reduce preventable medical errors.
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.
Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.
Ensure everyone who needs it will receive a tax credit for their premiums.
**[B]Reduce Costs and Save a Typical American Family up to $2,500 as reforms phase in:
**

[/B]

Lower drug costs by allowing the importation of safe medicines from other developed countries, increasing the use of generic drugs in public programs and taking on drug companies that block cheaper generic medicines from the market
Require hospitals to collect and report health care cost and quality data
Reduce the costs of catastrophic illnesses for employers and their employees.
Reform the insurance market to increase competition by taking on anticompetitive activity that drives up prices without improving quality of care.

thrash

Health insurance is supposed to be only used for emergencies. Just like any other insurance.

The problem is that avoiding for paying for inexpensive preventative care can mean filing a huge claim for large-intervention care later on.

There is already free medical care for emergencies for everyone. A hospital cannot turn you away. This is why a lot of people go to the ER for headaches or other such crap -- they can get care without having to pay for it and the staff is legally obligated to treat them.

I don't know how this is currently financed. But this happens today and is part of the problem.

StangerBanger96

Another thing that has allowed medical costs to skyrocket, besides frivolous lawsuits against doctors, is tons of doctors/hospitals being in bed with the insurance companies. The companies can charge a pretty penny and make a nice profit, and at the same time the hospital/doctor can bill them $100 for a screw you can pick up at ACE hardware for $0.39 just because it's a medical screw.

? This user is from outside of this forum

thrash;242748 wrote:
Health insurance is supposed to be only used for emergencies. Just like any other insurance.

The problem is that avoiding for paying for inexpensive preventative care can mean filing a huge claim for large-intervention care later on.

There is already free medical care for emergencies for everyone. A hospital cannot turn you away. This is why a lot of people go to the ER for headaches or other such crap -- they can get care without having to pay for it and the staff is legally obligated to treat them.

I don't know how this is currently financed. But this happens today and is part of the problem.

Going to respond paragraph by paragraph....bear with me please:

You are correct, it is supposed to be for emergencies only.
Absolutely correct, preventive maintenance is always the best policy.
Yes, anyone can go to the ER and be guaranteed service. However, ER visits cost more than regular clinic visits...and if someone defaults on their payments, the cost gets absorbed by the clinic...which leads into....
At present, the hospitals pretty much absorb the unpaid expenses for the fiscal year and then negotiate their pricing with ins. companies for the following year. Part of what you are paying for when you buy insurance is for the expenses of the other guy who didn't have coverage....so basically welfare again, only on the private sector....of course some gets covered by the state as well as the fed welfare programs as well...aka Medicaid.

Rexwagon

StangerBanger96;242753 wrote:
Another thing that has allowed medical costs to skyrocket, besides frivolous lawsuits against doctors, is tons of doctors/hospitals being in bed with the insurance companies. The companies can charge a pretty penny and make a nice profit, and at the same time the hospital/doctor can bill them $100 for a screw you can pick up at ACE hardware for $0.39 just because it's a medical screw.

That is another thing that needs to stop. We are all human, we make small mistakes from time to time.

Fargostreet.com

Obama and Bush not so far apart...