National Health Care
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Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Yes they do. Not everything you hear on the news is true. It is supplemental insurance that guarantees them earlier access and over things not covered (Dental, vision, etc....)Insurance accounts for 10% of Canada's GDP, whereas it accounts for 17% of the US GDP.
Who says that is a bad thing?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
The largest reason for the long wait in Canada is because of the severe shortage of Dr's and Nurse's there. Which coincidentally is part of the reason why we have expensive insurance here. Not everyone that wants (and is qualified) gets to be a Doctor. I can't remember who is directly responsible (AMA maybe?) for choosing who qualifies.Could the shortage of Doctors and Nurses be due to the careers not being appealing as a result of their national health care system?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Essentially the supply of Doctors is artificially limited in the United States of America.The number of Doctors is artificially limited to keep Doctors wages high.
Hmm, I thought that there were a limited amount of doctors due to licensing and education. Aw hell, lets let just anybody be a doctor. That can't be a bad idea... er...
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
The supply of Doctors in the United States of America is limited by the number of places in Medical Schools for Doctors to be trained.Every year far more qualified students are rejected by Medical Schools than are accepted.
Proof? And what is the reason that they were rejected?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
You could easily have ten times as many Doctors Graduated each year if Medical Schools did not severely limit the supply of Doctors.This would be with no reduction in the quality of students that are accepted to Medical School. So the medical schools are to blame for a supposed shortage of doctors which results in higher health care costs?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Often due to Political considerations in the United States of America, far less qualified students are accepted to meet affirmative action requirements.Much better qualified students are rejected and forced to find another profession other than medicine even though they are far better qualified than the affirmative action students that are accepted.
I'll agree with you there but affirmative action is a whole 'nother argument.
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
If you had approximately ten times as many openings for Medical Students as you do today, you would not have the anomaly of highly qualified students being rejected and forced to find another profession, while less qualified affirmative action students are accepted and permitted to become doctors.With far more Doctors you would have much better quality Medical Care at much lower prices bacause of competition.
If you want to get the cost of Medicine down, I recommend that you encourage your Politicians to dramatically increase the number of Doctors Trained each year in the United States of America.
Sounds like protectionism to me and/or monopoly creating (essentially).
(And yes, I know that frivolous lawsuits and malpractice insurance are a huge factor as well....also insurance costs spiked in the 80's when prescription drugs were allowed to advertise their products on tv/magazines/etc... which created an artificial demand and a huge pressure for doctors to provide drugs that were probably not medically necessary...I don't need to know about every drug on the market, that's what I pay my doctor to know)
How about instead you get the fucking politicians out of everything and let the market work?
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MisterCMK;282899 wrote:
Could the shortage of Doctors and Nurses be due to the careers not being appealing as a result of their national health care system?No, they still set their own rates. It is more due to the unionization of the Dr's not allowing enough Doctors into med school....even if the qualify.
Hmm, I thought that there were a limited amount of doctors due to licensing and education. Aw hell, lets let just anybody be a doctor. That can't be a bad idea... er...
It is more due to the unionization of the Dr's not allowing enough Doctors into med school....even if the qualify. See thrash's response, he pretty well nailed it.
Proof? And what is the reason that they were rejected?
Schools don't need to have a reason to reject you....they just do it...especially undergraduate schools.
So the medical schools are to blame for a supposed shortage of doctors which results in higher health care costs?
In part, yes. Part is due to the AMA.
I'll agree with you there but affirmative action is a whole 'nother argument.
We agreed on something
How about instead you get the fucking politicians out of everything and let the market work?
So are you saying monopolization is a good thing? Do you have any idea how bad our industry would be fucked if SimplexGrinnell/Tyco had free run to just buy up/force out everyone? They already hold a huge market share advantage over any other manufacturer/vendor/service company in this country.
This country DEPENDS on small business to remain a capitalist (as we know it) country. Not Walmart. Not Microsoft.
I'd rather live in a semi-socialist society than one in which the HUGE corporations are the primary employers and primary suppliers of all things...because in all honesty, if it comes down to that, you are basically looking at socialism anyway. Only this time instead of the Gov't/Public owning the businesses you have the businesses owning the Gov't/Public.
Hence my reasoning for saying that (reasonable) rules/regulations are needed on business practices IF we want to keep capitalism in place as we know it.
(Yes, I know we are talking healthcare in this thread, but the statement led me off-track...and no, I am not in favor of Nationalized Health Care, I'm just pointing out the flaws in BOTH systems at present)
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oh, fwiw, it looks like the current bills aren't even going to get an up/down vote.
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Monopolies are created by government -- the ultimate monopoly. Explaining that we need government to keep monopoly in check is hillarious. (Except it isn't because so many people keep repeating this)
I never met a regulation I wouldn't mind getting rid of
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So, you think that competition isn't healthy? And that a corporate bully should be able to effectively buy out/shut down everyone in their path? I don't buy it. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this point, but to make an analogy of what I mean, I'll relate it to driving laws.
I think that restrictions need to be placed on roadways. The regulations that are there are for the safety of everyone on the road. While there is no doubt that an Enzo is certainly capable of speeds far faster than the posted speed limit, and can do them safely because it has the proper safety equipment you still have the safety of those around you to be concerned about. Those who own a 1980's K-car, for example, become rolling chicanes for the faster, more nimble cars which creates a problem for both the Enzo owner and the K-car owner as both will have to make adjustments to how they drive. Whereas by creating a uniform regulation, the cars (In theory) should be able to both handle adequately at posted speed limits.
Your version of this is: Let everyone drive how they want. Eventually either the slower cars will get tired of getting out of the way of the faster cars or the faster cars will all be destroyed....taking out a wake of slower cars in their process. Eventually only cars of one speed capability will exist and the people who used to drive slower cars will be forced to catch a ride with the people in the faster cars in order to get anywhere.
But what happens when the faster cars approach speeds that even they can not sustain and crash?
When that happens....then who drives?
The slow cars are already off the road and their technology is obsolete.
The owners can not afford to resurrect the old cars and make them road worthy again, so we end up with a group of people needing to get places and no one able to take them there.
Now if there were only a speed limit that still allows for swift/safe travel for all....
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substitute the word "car" with "business" and you can get my point.
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That'd be pretty crazy to see a bunch of businesses and high rises driving on an interstate...
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im glad i have insurance from the state of mn otherwise i couldnt afford to get a headache. or a thumb lobbed off. or an exam for contacts. or my teeth cleaned. btw do you have four hundred dollars for a cavity?! right.
just because canada couldnt get it right doesnt mean it cant work. is that how we are basing the plausibility of things these days? if canada has done it or not? get serious. ive lost faith in every last one of you.
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If you dont have enough cash availible to pay for a simple doctor or dental visit you are one dumb son of a bitch. Only stupid kids that have absolutely no income or drink it all away dont have a couple hundred bucks over the course of 3-6 months to pay off a simple bill. Get a life and go be poor somewhere else if thats the case, or mooch off your parents...
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In all honesty, dental insurance is a scam to begin with...only covers exams and a TINY portion of surgical (vs major medical). I'd be better off w/o mine, and I've had 2 root canals in the past 2 years.
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24valvenotak;283049 wrote:
im glad i have insurance from the state of mn otherwise i couldnt afford to get a headache. or a thumb lobbed off. or an exam for contacts. or my teeth cleaned. btw do you have four hundred dollars for a cavity?! right.just because canada couldnt get it right doesnt mean it cant work. is that how we are basing the plausibility of things these days? if canada has done it or not? get serious. ive lost faith in every last one of you.
Who is using just Canada? Look at any other country with socialized healthcare...when they have the option, those who can afford it go where for the real operations? USA, right here....why? Because socialized healthcare doesn't work for real problems, it creates problems.
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24valvenotak;283049 wrote:
im glad i have insurance from the state of mn otherwise i couldnt afford to get a headache. or a thumb lobbed off. or an exam for contacts. or my teeth cleaned. btw do you have four hundred dollars for a cavity?! right.just because canada couldnt get it right doesnt mean it cant work. is that how we are basing the plausibility of things these days? if canada has done it or not? get serious. ive lost faith in every last one of you.
It can't work because I don't want to be Forced to spend a single cent of my money to keep you from dying, much less to help fix your teeth or anything else you're upset about.
For every time you think or say "someone else should pay for me", I think "you should die sad and alone".
If you can't pay, but you expect *somebody *to pay, that somebody is going to be me and everyone else. And we're not interested. You don't deserve it.
Regarding "finally getting it right", here's how it always goes down, everywhere:
The government promises people it will take care of them. Then it figures out that's going to take a lot of money. But the costs have been abstracted away from the end users, so everybody wants the best of everything all the time; they're not footing the bill so they have no incentive to economize. This means that all decisions about who receives what become politcal, and the decisions are made by beaurocrats reporting to politicians who only know how to do one thing: steal from the guys that wont vote for them to pay for the stuff they promised to the guys that will vote for them. It all costs too much and eventually politicians are telling which people what they can and cannot have done to them.
If I don't like my car insurance company, I can use a different one to try and get service that fits my needs better.
Now consider that trying to change insurers means trying to fire your government.
Maybe you haven't visited your grandparents enough. Mine spent a lot of time bitching about how social security and war pension money and blah blah wasn't paying enough to keep them alive with their 20 prescriptions that were all some stupid high amount of money per month. Now they're dead.
This is what happens when you think the government will solve everything: people die, bitterly.
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Trafik Jamz;283055 wrote:
dental insurance is a scam
with insurance, as always, caveat emptor. your insurance agent can be your best friend, s/he can help you save a huge sum of money by directing you the right policy, or helping you avoid wasting money on coverage you don't need.as someone who has sold dental insurance in the past, i will agree with you, but i don't feel that it is a complete waste of money. it depends on the plan. some major medical plans don't cover any dental problems (unless they are causing other issues, etc), and some dental plans cover bigger surgical procedures with higher benefits (elimination periods can vary). some plans are better if you have children. $70/month to get increased benefits and cover the kids? only if the benefit cap is an individual cap and not a policy cap
as a whole, unless you have something planned for right after the elimination period, and the annual maximum benefit is high enough to cover additional procedures that you may use in that year, dental insurance may be right for you. i think it is best to just save $50/month and keep it in a separate account if you feel the need. in the end, you're paying the insurer or the dentist, the cost is almost the same
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just for the sake of argument, Canada does have a higher life expectancy than the US as do many other countries that have gov't healthcare.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf
Kind of an interesting read that goes along with my statement....you will notice that the US spends more public dollars on healthcare currently than most other countries on the list excluding Norway and Luxembourg and spends WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more private dollars than anyone...yet our life expectancy is shorter.
http://www.irdes.fr/EcoSante/DownLoad/OECDHealthData_FrequentlyRequestedData.xls
^^^^Nice little excel file that breaks it down far beyond what I care to dig into, but others might like to look at the info. Found the file on the following website http://www.oecd.org/home/0,3305,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
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Trafik Jamz;283088 wrote:
just for the sake of argument, Canada does have a higher life expectancy than the US as do many other countries that have gov't healthcare.LMAO.... yeah health care is the reason.....:rolleyes:.
I would have to argue contrasting life styles play a much bigger role
just look at the obesity rate for one example
31-32% for the US and 17-19% for Canada
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Maybe we should close our boarders to health care tourists and see what happens??
I can't wait to see all the innovation and discovery go bye bye..... hell just one place in TX spends more on R&R than all of Canada combined
the incentive (profit) for innovation will be gone
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Grr;283054 wrote:
If you dont have enough cash availible to pay for a simple doctor or dental visit you are one dumb son of a bitch. Only stupid kids that have absolutely no income or drink it all away dont have a couple hundred bucks over the course of 3-6 months to pay off a simple bill. Get a life and go be poor somewhere else if thats the case, or mooch off your parents...Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".
This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
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PSiedTSi;283097 wrote:
Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
I am working with a company that is taking over the contract from Humana, for Tricare which is the "provider" that oversees military personal.
From what I hear, there's a reason why it was free.
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