Taxes, time to pay your fair share
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I SWEAR BY MY LIFE AND MY LOVE OF IT THAT I WILL NEVER LIVE FOR THE SAKE OF ANOTHER MAN, NOR ASK ANOTHER MAN TO LIVE FOR MINE
-- The Oath, John Galt, "Atlas Shrugged"
Socialism is fundamentally broken. People that lean socialist are leaning towards brokenness. They are sad to listen to and watch, but tolerable so long as they wield no power. Unfortuneately, the practical aim of socialism is to concentrate power in the hands of the socialists -- one cannot acheive socialism without a centralized planning aparatus, and naturally those whom espouse socialism and are fucking stupid (ok: delusional) enough to think that it works at all are obviously delusional enough to think that they're the ones qualified to do the job.
Time and time this has shown to be false. It's not that "the wrong people" always get the power (they do), its that the system is completely unworkably broken. No matter who is "in charge" it will always fail, and always for the same reasons. But don't take my word for it, read "The Road to Serfdom", by F.A. Hayek, who shat out more economic knowledge than the average pundit website could ever hope to harvest or convey.
As an aside, if you've got a couple hours, this synopsis of Atlas Shrugged is a great way to get the gist of the story without reading the over 1000 pages of the actual book. The basic plot is that the hard working, thinking, enterprising, contributory members of society revolt against the lazy-in-power whom expect entitlement after entitlement. But it's not the kind of revolt you'd expect.
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--1709-AtlasShruggedSynopsis.aspx
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tjamz;190713 wrote:
the top 1% control something like 60% of the money in the country (percentage may be off a bit, can't find the chart that actually breaks it out...had it bookmarked, but can't find it....grrrrr)If the top 1% control 60% then how could this government statistic be correct?
the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.3 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (32.0 percent) of income
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From Mr. Ron Paul,
"Working Americans like lower taxes. So do I. Lower taxes benefit all of us, creating jobs and allowing us to make more decisions for ourselves about our lives.
Whether a tax cut reduces a single mother’s payroll taxes by $40 a month or allows a business owner to save thousands in capital gains taxes and hire more employees, that tax cut is a good thing. Lower taxes allow more spending, saving, and investing which helps the economy — that means all of us.
Real conservatives have always supported low taxes and low spending.
But today, too many politicians and lobbyists are spending America into ruin. We are nine trillion dollars in debt as a nation. Our mounting government debt endangers the financial future of our children and grandchildren. If we don’t cut spending now, higher taxes and economic disaster will be in their future — and yours.
In addition, the Federal Reserve, our central bank, fosters runaway debt by increasing the money supply — making each dollar in your pocket worth less. The Fed is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to “we the people.”
Worse, our economy and our very independence as a nation is increasingly in the hands of foreign governments such as China and Saudi Arabia, because their central banks also finance our runaway spending.
We cannot continue to allow private banks, wasteful agencies, lobbyists, corporations on welfare, and governments collecting foreign aid to dictate the size of our ballooning budget. We need a new method to prioritize our spending. It’s called the Constitution of the United States."
Taken from: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/debt-and-taxes/
/thread
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I don't have any political numbers, percentages or any of that bulshit. However I did write a paper on this in highschool. I came to the conclusions:
A. People who have more money should be taxed more.
B. No one will ever be happy.
C. Politicians don't do what is best for the country, they do what people want them to do, which is lower taxes.My resolution: A flat income tax <u>ALONG WITH</u> an increase in specialized taxes on other aspects of business' expenses.
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The issue in the past is that the government doesn't follow what the constitution put in place for us. Without getting completely discounted by everyone on here as 'one of those guys', taxable income is defined in a different manner in the constitution vs. what has been implemented by our lovely government for MANY years...
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StangerBanger96;190837 wrote:
If the top 1% control 60% then how could this government statistic be correct?Their earnings (after deductions, etc... ) were 32% of the total earned. That is not a measure of their worth nor a measure of the amount of money they have direct control of. Savings, aside from interest, do not get reported as earnings....figure the vast majority of the top 1% are invested in TSA's (tax sheltered annuities), 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's, Keogh plans, etc... All of which don't have their earnings taxed (different rules for each type of course, some pay tax up front, such as IRA's, others pay in the end, such as 401k's.) Heck, that is how I keep my taxes at bay, by using 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's, Equity Building (UL) Life Insurance plans, and annuities....I can't see why others wouldn't do the same.
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tjamz;190847 wrote:
Their earnings (after deductions, etc... ) were 32% of the total earned. That is not a measure of their worth nor a measure of the amount of money they have direct control of. Savings, aside from interest, do not get reported as earnings....figure the vast majority of the top 1% are invested in TSA's (tax sheltered annuities), 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's, Keogh plans, etc... All of which don't have their earnings taxed (different rules for each type of course, some pay tax up front, such as IRA's, others pay in the end, such as 401k's.) Heck, that is how I keep my taxes at bay, by using 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's, Equity Building (UL) Life Insurance plans, and annuities....I can't see why others wouldn't do the same.
One word... Laziness... -
This post is deleted!
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wannabe;190842 wrote:
I don't have any political numbers, percentages or any of that bulshit. However I did write a paper on this in highschool. I came to the conclusions:
A. People who have more money should be taxed more.How did you come up with that conclusion Joel? I don't follow this socialistic way of thinking. Because it's more "fair"?
A little analogy from the stats in my original post. If there are 100 people eating at Red Lobster, they all finish eating and the waiter comes out with the bill. The rich guy in the corner gets the tab for himself and 39 other people. He says wtf is this, the waiter says this is fair because you make $xx more money than everyone else. He give the next 5 wealthiest people the tab for the next 59 people for the same reason. The 50 people sitting there that are the poorest all pool their money together and pay for one persons meal. Seems pretty fair.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
24valvenotak;190856 wrote:
do you honestly think this country would be a better place if everyone had an extra 10% of their income in the bank? or would everyone just have a bigger tv, a louder civic, or a bigger mcd's fat ass? if you ask me, mr jihad will just hate us more, in turn blow up more of the things we hold so dear, and we will have to re-learn all the colors of the rainbow and to which level of terror they correspond to.Great points, however isn't having a 'bigger tv, louder civic, or bigger ass' mean that they SPENT more money to get those things? Doesn't it mean that the quality of life for those people seem....better? Doesn't spending contribute to a stronger economy and a stronger dollar? Doesn't spending that extra 10% mean more sales tax is taken in from the government for help with improvements on necessary roads and bridges, instead of robbing from your paycheck?
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if anyone quotes my post before i deleted it poo on you, 4 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours = dyslexia.
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FG2;190863 wrote:
Great points, however isn't having a 'bigger tv, louder civic, or bigger ass' mean that they SPENT more money to get those things? Doesn't it mean that the quality of life for those people seem....better? Doesn't spending contribute to a stronger economy and a stronger dollar? Doesn't spending that extra 10% mean more sales tax is taken in from the government for help with improvements on necessary roads and bridges, instead of robbing from your paycheck?totally agree.. see previous post of mine.
i guess, in my defense, my definition of "quality of life" is different then others but at the same time the govt is already taking in that 10% from other people so, whats the difference? you pay it in sales tax or they rob it from your paycheck, either way they are going to get it. from you, from him, from me, whoever. I understand that the higher earners dont want to pay for it but it is simply a vicious cycle... if the rich dont pay for it, the poor do which means the poor have less to spend because they are being taxed more. the rich go under because nobody shops at their stores since the poor dont have enough left in their paychecks after they pay a higher tax base?
now no income tax and a flat sales tax? i could get on board...
but then we are just jumping back on that ferris wheel. the rich make more and have more to spend so they end up paying more in taxes.... im either missing something here due to lack of sleep, extreme stupidity, or we are all arguing over something out of alice and wonderland
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24valvenotak;190866 wrote:
totally agree.. see previous post of mine.i guess, in my defense, my definition of "quality of life" is different then others but at the same time the govt is already taking in that 10% from other people so, whats the difference? you pay it in sales tax or they rob it from your paycheck, either way they are going to get it. from you, from him, from me, whoever. I understand that the higher earners dont want to pay for it but it is simply a vicious cycle... if the rich dont pay for it, the poor do which means the poor have less to spend because they are being taxed more. the rich go under because nobody shops at their stores since the poor dont have enough left in their paychecks after they pay a higher tax base?
no you are forgetting the point that 'they' already have a 'bigger tv, louder civic, fatter ass'...The government is just getting their 6% of your 'extra 10% income'. So you make 30,000 annually with the extra 10% you get $3,000 more, in turn the 6% sales tax will give the government $180 and you $2820.
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DaveH;190859 wrote:
How did you come up with that conclusion Joel? I don't follow this socialistic way of thinking. Because it's more "fair"?A little analogy from the stats in my original post. If there are 100 people eating at Red Lobster, they all finish eating and the waiter comes out with the bill. The rich guy in the corner gets the tab for himself and 39 other people. He says wtf is this, the waiter says this is fair because you make $xx more money than everyone else. He give the next 5 wealthiest people the tab for the next 59 people for the same reason. The 50 people sitting there that are the poorest all pool their money together and pay for one persons meal. Seems pretty fair.
I guess I should have rephrased this. People who utilize the things taxes go towards to make more money should be taxed more. Let's look at it this way...
DMI Industries DESTROYS main ave carrying bazillion pound wind towers, shutting down public roads, etc. Is it fair that Mcdonalds across the street pays the same yearly taxes even though they don't use the roads for their business at all. This is why I think someone should push for more specific, specialized taxes... to target the people utilizing the services our tax dollars pay for. -
FG2;190867 wrote:
no you are forgetting the point that 'they' already have a 'bigger tv, louder civic, fatter ass'...The government is just getting their 6% of your 'extra 10% income'. So you make 30,000 annually with the extra 10% you get $3,000 more, in turn the 6% sales tax will give the government $180 and you $2820.agreed, but you make a million a year and no matter how big your tv already is 10% of a million is a hell of a lot more then 10% of 30k so you are still paying a majority of the taxes are you not?
i am missing how a flat tax will equal the playing field in terms of who pays what % of our nations taxes?
your supposed to learn something every day, apparently i was gone the day they were handing out flat tax is bomb pamphlets, so fill me in.
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24valvenotak;190871 wrote:
agreed, but you make a million a year and no matter how big your tv already is 10% of a million is a hell of a lot more then 10% of 30k so you are still paying a majority of the taxes are you not?i am missing how a flat tax will equal the playing field in terms of who pays what % of our nations taxes?
your supposed to learn something every day, apparently i was gone the day they were handing out flat tax is bomb pamphlets, so fill me in.
Mitch, the way the tax system is set up right now, rich people pay a higher percentage of THEIR income. Flat tax is a proposal to make everyone pay the same percentage of their money. Yes, the rich would still be paying the majority of the country's taxes, but, they would be paying LESS on their earned dollars, ultimately leaving the government with one choice which would be raising everyone else's taxes.
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yea, ive got that part, which is why i fail to see why it is such a wonderful idea for the majority of the people?
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Because technically it is unfair to charge a more wealthy person a higher percentage of their income as taxes just because they have become more successful. The current tax system is borderline communist IMO. The truth is though, that tax money has to come from somewhere.
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wannabe;190876 wrote:
Because technically it is unfair to charge a more wealthy person more taxes just because they have become more successful. The current tax system is borderline communist IMO. The truth is though, that tax money has to come from somewhere.Mitchell needs a nap before allowing is open mind to be further cluttered with nonsense. I understand the principle of a flat tax. I guess I just fail to see the christmas miracle of it all. I agree it is unfair to punish the wealthy for being wealthy. I agree taxes are lamesauce. That is all before more exhaustion and alcohol clouds my train of thought, or lack thereof
go bison.
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