Should the US govt bail out the American Auto Giants?

[Jim]

Wow, this is a momentus occassion, FS being in political unity on an issue.

[PSiedTSi]

MisterCMK;246375 wrote:
Bingo!

Too easy I tell you, too easy.

This was actually a good one too. Considering almost everyone was in agreement, you pretty much made this thread go 3 pages so far lol

I was hoping you were, otherwise you pulled a faster flip-flop than Ventura after he won the election(Independent to Democrat)...

Jim;246380 wrote:
Wow, this is a momentus occassion, FS being in political unity on an issue.

Haha, I think the government should take our advice on this one...probably means it is the only option lol...

[Grr]

tjamz;246359 wrote:
most reliable cars of the last decade:

The Warranty Direct Top 100 Most Reliable Used Cars Of The Past Decade in order:

  1 Honda Accord 2 Subaru Forester 3 Mazda MX-5 4 Mitsubishi Carisma 5 Toyota Yaris 6 Honda Civic 7 Nissan Almera 8 Honda CR-V 9 Toyota RAV4 10 Nissan Micra 11 Lexus IS 200 12 Mazda 626 13 Jaguar X-Type 14 Toyota Landcruiser 15 Volvo S/V40 16 MINI (BMW) 17 Suzuki Vitara 18 Mazda 323 19 Toyota Carina E 20 Saab 9-5 21 Lexus LS400 22 Ford Ka 23 Rover 45 24 Hyundai Lantra 25 Mercedes SLK 26 Citroen Xsara 27 Ford Cougar 28 Subaru Impreza 29 Skoda Octavia 30 Audi A4 31 Nissan Primera 32 Toyota Avensis 33 Volvo 850 34 Vauxhall Corsa 35 Seat Toledo 36 Volkswagen Golf 37 Daewoo Lanos 38 Fiat Brava 39 Hyundai Coupe 40 Mitsubishi Shogun 41 Rover 25 42 Mercedes CLK 43 Fiat Marea 44 Ford Focus 45 Peugeot 106 46 MG MG TF 47 BMW Z3 48 Hyundai Accent 49 Volkswagen Polo 50 Fiat Punto 51 Vauxhall Zafira 52 Mercedes C-class 53 Volvo S60 54 Toyota MR2 55 Mazda Xedos 6 56 Ford Puma 57 Vauxhall Astra 58 Vauxhall Omega 59 Chrysler Neon 60 Audi A2 61 Ford Fiesta 62 Ford Mondeo 63 Vauxhall Corsa 64 Citroen Saxo 65 BMW 3 Series 66 Vauxhall Vectra 67 Isuzu Trooper 68 Mercedes M-Class 69 Subaru Legacy 70 Rover 400 71 Fiat Ulysse 72 Mercedes E-Class 73 Renault Clio 74 Toyota Celica 75 Peugeot 306 76 Peugeot 406 77 Volvo S70 78 Rover 75 79 Daewoo Matiz 80 Peugeot 206 81 Mazda MX-3 82 Vauxhall Tigra 83 Seat Ibiza 84 Peugeot 106 85 Renault Megane 86 Peugeot 406 87 Saab 9-3 88 Audi A3 89 BMW X5 90 Mercedes S-class 91 Toyota Corolla 92 Seat Alhambra 93 BMW 5-series 94 Daewoo Nubira 95 Alfa Romeo 145 96 Saab 900 97 Mazda MX-6 98 Jaguar S-Type 99 Daewoo Leganza 100 Porsche Boxster

The vehicles in red are the non-gm (at least not in the US) made cars, the vehicles in blue are the GM made cars manufactured/sold in the US.

22 Ford Ka
23 Rover- still using a 1960s GM v8
27 Ford Cougar
34 Vauxhall Corsa (GM)
44 Ford Focus
51 Vauxhall Zafira (GM)
56 Ford Puma
57 Vauxhall Astra (Saturn Astra)
58 Vauxhall Omega (GM)
59 Chrysler Neon
61 Ford Fiesta
62 Ford Mondeo
63 Vauxhall Corsa (GM)
66 Vauxhall Vectra
82 Vauxhall Tigra (GM)

All of these cars take parts from the domestic parts bin, and all will be affected by any of the Big 3 going under. Also that is from the past decade, i said they were shit but the current models are at least as good or better than any Honda/ Toyota out there. Case in point-
Chevy malibu
Saturn astra
Pontiac G8
Pontiac Solstice
GM truck lines, all of them
not to mention the other two, this is just off the top of my head

[weshole]

PSiedTSi;246384 wrote:
Haha, I think the government should take our advice on this one...probably means it is the only option lol...

I think they already decided that GM wasn't getting shit.

[00Accord]

Honda uses Ford gauge clusters. I was just reading an article that said upwards of 3 million jobs would be lost if GM went under. They include parts dealers and others tied to the company. That would suck.

[Guest]

Not disputing that some of those cars are made from GM/other us parts bins, just that the american versions of the GM vehicles aren't as reliable (over the last 10 years).

As of MY2007 (unless otherwise noted) most reliable cars:

Most Reliable Small Car
Most reliable (Best score first)
Honda Fit (pictured)*
Toyota Yaris*
Honda Civic Hybrid*
Toyota Corolla

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Chevrolet Cobalt
2006 Nissan Sentra
Volkswagen Jetta (5 cyl.)
Chevrolet Aveo

Most Reliable Family Car
Most reliable (Best score first)
Honda Accord Hybrid (pictured)
Toyota Prius
Honda Accord (4-cyl.)
Ford Fusion*
Mercury Milan*

Least reliable
Volkswagen Passat (4 cyl.)*

Most Reliable Upscale/Large Car
Most reliable (Best score first)
Lexus ES350 (pictured)
Lincoln Zephyr*
Hyundai Azera*
Acura TSX
Acura TL

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Jaguar X-type
Chrysler 300 (V8)
Saab 9-3

Most Reliable Luxury Car
Most reliable (Best score first)
2006 Lexus LS (2007 model pictured)
Infiniti M*

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Cadillac STS (V8)
2006 Mercedes-Benz S-class
Mercedes-Benz CLS*
Mercedes-Benz E-class sedan
BMW 7-series
Jaguar S-type

Most Reliable Sport/Sporty car
Most reliable (Best score first)
Lexus SC
Toyota Camry Solara (4-cyl.)
Subaru Impreza WRX
Honda S2000
Mitsubishi Eclipse*
2006 Mini Cooper hatchback

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Pontiac Solstice*
Mercedes-Benz SL
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz SLK (V6)
Chevrolet Corvette
Porsche 911 Carrera
Ford Mustang (V6)

Most Reliable Wagon/Minivan
Most reliable (Best score first)
Pontiac Vibe (pictured)
Scion xB
Toyota Matrix
Toyota Sienna

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Uplander
Saturn Relay
Nissan Quest

Most Reliable Small SUV
Most reliable (Best score first)
Toyota FJ Cruiser* (pictured)
Honda Element
2006 Honda CR-V
Toyota Rav4*
2006 Mitsubishi Outlander*
Subaru Forester

Least reliable
Kia Sportage

Midsized SUVs
Most reliable (Best score first)
Toyota Highlander Hybrid* (pictured)
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota Highlander
Honda Pilot
Lexus RX400h* (hybrid)
2006 Acura MDX

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Mercedes-Benz M-class*
Land Rover LR3 (V8)
Cadillac SRX (V8)
Mercedes-Benz R-class*
Volkswagen Touareg
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Hummer H3*
2006 BMW X5 (V8)
Volvo XC90 (I6 and V8)
Ford Explorer (V8)
Mercury Mountaineer (V8)

Large SUVs
Most reliable (Best score first)
Toyota Land Cruiser
Lexus LX
Toyota Sequoia
Chevrolet Tahoe*
GMC Yukon*

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Nissan Armada
Infiniti QX56
Lincoln Navigator
Hummer H2

Pickups
Most reliable (Best score first)
Subaru Baja
Toyota Tundra
Toyota Tacoma
Nissan Frontier (V6)

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Nissan Titan
Ford F-250 (diesel)
Dodge Dakota (4WD)
2006 Cadillac Escalade EXT

those are straight from consumer reports....as linked from:
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/autos/reliable/index.html

again...the GM are all in Blue..even the ones that were deemed most reliable.

[Guest]

I'm certainly not pro-union or anti-union. I feel they have their place, but I am glad I don't work for one. Some certainly have too much power/influence....but others are a little more sensible and can be a benefit to a company. This is one thing I'm positive that CMK will agree with me on as his family owns a fire alarm company that is comprised pretty much of all union technicians.

[DelSlow]

Jim;246380 wrote:
Wow, this is a momentus occassion, FS being in political unity on an issue.

yea. I wonder who the douche was that voted yes....hmm what a loser.

[SmitEvo]

00Accord;246398 wrote:
Honda uses Ford gauge clusters. I was just reading an article that said upwards of 3 million jobs would be lost if GM went under. They include parts dealers and others tied to the company. That would suck.

The thing is that all jobs wont be lost...some other company will take them over and keep the name. Greatest deal of the century..buy stocks pennies on the dollar, get some changes and they can be successful. They need to build capital to become a competitor again.

[zbrown]

tjamz;246400 wrote:
least reliable (worst score first)

ford f-250 (diesel)

haha....6.0/6.4 ftmfl

[Jim]

tjamz;246400 wrote:
Least reliable (Worst score first)
Pontiac Solstice*
Mercedes-Benz SL
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz SLK (V6)
Chevrolet Corvette
Porsche 911 Carrera
Ford Mustang (V6).

Yeah SLK was unreliable. Thank god for a warranty.

[DaveH]

Something interesting I just saw on a cut-n-paste from Forbes....

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about: "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.

[SmitEvo]

Good info...again, I wonder why they have problems.

[DelSlow]

DaveH;246917 wrote:
Something interesting I just saw on a cut-n-paste from Forbes....

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about: "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.

Unions man, bail em out if they agree to get rid of the unions.

[crowmagnum]

i really dont think that its our responsibility to bail them out when they should just make cars as good as japanese cars, it just seems that simple to me maybe its not

[BlueSRT0483]

There's a lot of jobs tied into the big 3... Not that just work under the big 3 alone. Dealerships & suppliers (both direct & non-direct) as well... I think they estimate over 3 millions jobs at stake...

There was two chapters of bankruptcy they could apply for, 7 and 11. I believe it was 7 that could still let them fail.

I think they are better off doing it how they did with Chrysler back when they were in financial trouble.

[capitlj]

I have always maintained that the UAW workers are grossly overpaid. 150k a year for a job that requires no experience or school WTF!!!!!!! I say no they will just have to figure it out for themselves and if that means they get swallowed up by Toyota or VW/audi so be it. That said I will still riot if, hypothetically, Ford gets taken over and the new management says no mustang or tries to take it in a new direction, aka probe.

[00Accord]

Where's Iacocca when you need him?

[Guest]

capitlj;246945 wrote:
I have always maintained that the UAW workers are grossly overpaid. 150k a year for a job that requires no experience or school WTF!!!!!!! I say no they will just have to figure it out for themselves and if that means they get swallowed up by Toyota or VW/audi so be it. That said I will still riot if, hypothetically, Ford gets taken over and the new management says no mustang or tries to take it in a new direction, aka probe.

$150k/year in wages & benefits (and that is average wage...starting wages are around $28.12/hour as of 2007)...the high end is excessive IMHO, but part of that blame lies on the management of GM/Ford/Chrysler for not standing up to the unions and saying "either bring your wages down w/ the rest of the industry or we will hire from outside the union"...but none of them have the balls to say that either.

The $28.12/hour is not unheard of, even locally, for non-union pipe-fitters (sprinkler fitters), I know of a good number making darn close to that that just started not too long ago in the industry...so the starting salary at the big 3 isn't completely insane, apparently those with more experience and more skilled labor get paid more and offset the difference?

[DaveH]

tjamz;246970 wrote:
The $28.12/hour is not unheard of, even locally, for non-union pipe-fitters (sprinkler fitters), I know of a good number making darn close to that that just started not too long ago in the industry...so the starting salary at the big 3 isn't completely insane, apparently those with more experience and more skilled labor get paid more and offset the difference?

There is a big difference IMO between a pipe fitter and a guy on the assembly line. Pipe fitters are skilled, and assembly line workers.... aren't.