Minnesota
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i'm waiting for Chuck to get in on the other side and argue.
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I know that there are people here that didnt graduate from HS, so forgive me if I affend you. But if you drop out of HS for anything other than psychological or medical problems for Freaking retarded. There is no reason why anyone should drop out! HS is just way to easy, they make it almost impossible to fail.
If your out of HS and didnt graduate, Go back. They now have online classes where you can get your diploma online. You would be suprised what a little maturity will do. I will offer free tutoring for anyone that would like to go back. Im serious! A diploma is just way to important.
Im no genious, but I have 1 year left before I recieve a degree in Mechanical Engineering. That has to speak for something.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
12.645@118mph 12.6psi
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DaveH;264329 wrote:
Public education is FREE, and it is proven to give you an advantage in life over those who don't get it. Why anyone would drop out is simply beyond reasoning.Word... to graduate hs, u basically just have to show up...
I think this would be a good idea...
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FWIW, I think it is a great bill as well to mandate staying til you're 18. I just wanted to see what others thought.
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DaveH;264396 wrote:
I know thats all I did, you didn't have to worry about seeing my name on the honor role.:icon_rabbit:
That explains why you are just working for that puny little company over by fleet farm....I knew they'd hire anyone who walked through the door!
:icon_jokercolor:
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same here bubba...even got student of the 1/4 a couple times....yet the yearbook has a picture of me asleep in English class...no, not the English class that I was supposed to be in when I fell asleep...the class 2 periods later where I was still asleep.
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I think it's a dumb bill, but that's because I am against compulsory schooling in general.
Look, not everybody is cut out for going to school, much less the same type of school. Running schools like jails will continue to be a problem.
I know some of you hate reading, but this is a really good read on the history of public and compulsory education in the world and specifically the US. I have this in paper form but this is the complete text online from the publisher:
http://www.mises.org/story/2226
Here's the short version: all of the founders of public education in our country, including Horace Mann, the namesake of Horace Mann elementary school right down the street from me, viewed public education as the means to make all people equal, uniform, and conformist. The early educationists in the US firmly beleived that the child was the property of the state.
The book is only 54 pages printed, it will probably only take you a couple hours to read the link above.
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thrash;264496 wrote:
I think it's a dumb bill, but that's because I am against compulsory schooling in general.Look, not everybody is cut out for going to school, much less the same type of school. Running schools like jails will continue to be a problem.
I know some of you hate reading, but this is a really good read on the history of public and compulsory education in the world and specifically the US. I have this in paper form but this is the complete text online from the publisher:
http://www.mises.org/story/2226
Here's the short version: all of the founders of public education in our country, including Horace Mann, the namesake of Horace Mann elementary school right down the street from me, viewed public education as the means to make all people equal, uniform, and conformist. The early educationists in the US firmly beleived that the child was the property of the state.
The book is only 54 pages printed, it will probably only take you a couple hours to read the link above.
Did you graduate high school? -
thrash;264496 wrote:
I think it's a dumb bill, but that's because I am against compulsory schooling in general.Yay, the person I was hoping would respond...and responded in the way I figured he would.
Look, not everybody is cut out for going to school, much less the same type of school. Running schools like jails will continue to be a problem.
Just like not everyone is cut out for a job and therefore shouldn't be expected to have one in order to live in this country (yes...sarcasm). Seriously though, you went through public school (I think you said you did anyway) as did I as did 99% of the people on this board. If this board is any indication of how well the schools worked for making kids more liberal, I'd say that they failed horribly at that. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, I've never met one single kid who was home schooled that turned out to be a productive member of society....I hope you prove me wrong, but the majority seem to walk away from home schooling without the ability to function in the real world. Without the ability to take criticism/teasing/etc.. and roll with the punches. They tend not to do well in comparison with their peers either on careers. This is why I have referred to home schooling as a form of child abuse....again, not singling you out, you seem intelligent enough to school your kids at home, most parents ultimately are not.
Now private schooling is a different story, but they are affected by this law as well....home schooled kids can still choose to drop out pretty much whenever they or their parents decide is a good time to do so.
I know some of you hate reading, but this is a really good read on the history of public and compulsory education in the world and specifically the US. I have this in paper form but this is the complete text online from the publisher:
http://www.mises.org/story/2226
Here's the short version: all of the founders of public education in our country, including Horace Mann, the namesake of Horace Mann elementary school right down the street from me, viewed public education as the means to make all people equal, uniform, and conformist. The early educationists in the US firmly believed that the child was the property of the state.
The book is only 54 pages printed, it will probably only take you a couple hours to read the link above.
We are going back a good number of years here and like all beliefs, they tend to change over time. But what is wrong with giving everyone an equal and uniform education across the country? (I haven't read the article yet, but I promise I will) We keep saying that everyone has the same opportunity to make it here, but is that really true if we abolished the public school system altogether (like you are in favor of) and relied on private education. It is safe to say that my kid would attend a better school and receive a superior education vs what a single mothers child would receive (if any school would be available at all). I'm sorry, but your idea on this one would create such a great divide between the rich/poor that someone who was on the poor side of the argument would very likely never had an equal opportunity (or any opportunity really) to achieve incredible success....again, the majority of people in this country attended public schools and we are hardly a nation of conformists.
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Trafik Jamz;264501 wrote:
We are going back a good number of years here and like all beliefs, they tend to change over time. But what is wrong with giving everyone an equal and uniform education across the country? (I haven't read the article yet, but I promise I will) We keep saying that everyone has the same opportunity to make it here, but is that really true if we abolished the public school system altogether (like you are in favor of) and relied on private education. It is safe to say that my kid would attend a better school and receive a superior education vs what a single mothers child would receive (if any school would be available at all). I'm sorry, but your idea on this one would create such a great divide between the rich/poor that someone who was on the poor side of the argument would very likely never had an equal opportunity (or any opportunity really) to achieve incredible success....again, the majority of people in this country attended public schools and we are hardly a nation of conformists.
hurray for socialism -
Here's a big thrash post. Skip to the bottom if you want the bottom line
Trafik Jamz;264501 wrote:
Just like not everyone is cut out for a jobWell, there are people who truly aren't cut out for a job, due to some non-self-inflicted disability that prevents them from being effective for any purpose.
and therefore shouldn't be expected to have one in order to live in this country (yes...sarcasm).
I wouldn't kick jobless people out of the US. They're free to be here. But unless they're the people I mentioned above, who truly must be cared for by society, I'm not in favor of making it easy for the able bodied to remain unproductive at the expense of unwilling sponsors.
Not everyone is cut out for the same kind of job, but luckily, there are lots of different kinds of jobs out there.
But the problem with government-run education is that there is really only one kind of school, and that is by design. People are different, and not only do public schools not serve that reality well, they are designed in broad strokes to trample and crush those differences.
Seriously though, you went through public school (I think you said you did anyway) as did I as did 99% of the people on this board. If this board is any indication of how well the schools worked for making kids more liberal, I'd say that they failed horribly at that.
Luckily, my education greatly eclipsed the mandatory service I did in public school.
I was doing pay-extra-for-nerdy-kids summer programs from the time I was about 6 years old. Were you writing software on the Apple 2 and C64 when you were in elementary school? Were you programming a robotic milling machine in middle school? Did your dad help you finish calculus all the way through multi-variable before you left highschool, so that you started college day 1 with a math minor and a full ride?
We moved every few years to make sure i was in the "Best" school district, generally, and my dad was pretty instrumental at making sure that I was learning stuff when I wasn't in jail/school.
However, and please don't take this the wrong way, I've never met one single kid who was home schooled that turned out to be a productive member of society....I hope you prove me wrong, but the majority seem to walk away from home schooling without the ability to function in the real world. Without the ability to take criticism/teasing/etc.. and roll with the punches. They tend not to do well in comparison with their peers either on careers. This is why I have referred to home schooling as a form of child abuse....again, not singling you out, you seem intelligent enough to school your kids at home, most parents ultimately are not.
The world is larger than your experiences. The more homeschooled kids I meet, the more my resolve is strenghtened. You also do what may others do: you set a false bar. Many publicly schooled children are not productive members of society, or don't relate well to people. Why should homeschooled kids be held to a standard that public school has never met? Why is that even the appropriate standard? If I meet a kid that cannot articulate what is going on in "American Idol", that's a virtue in my book. Relating as peers to the malevolent, the narrow, the shallow.. this is not something I'd choose to optimize my life or my education around. Would you?
This is an intrinsic failing of the public school system: that we need to optimize the course of eduction, the level of societal interaction, and the majority of the content and time, around the average person. THere are no average people. Some people cannot keep up with "Average", and some people cannot possibly have their attention held by "average". Everyone loses out, to varying degrees.
I have nothing against lifetime sandwhich artists -- they're doing *something *. But I want a different experience for myself, and hopefully for my children.
Finally, you don't own anyone's children, and neither does the state [as decided by the US supreme court]. Frankly, your opinion isn't relevant. I encourage you to raise and educate your children int he manner you deem most appropriate. Just leave me alone so that I can do the same.
We are going back a good number of years here and like all beliefs, they tend to change over time. But what is wrong with giving everyone an equal and uniform education across the country?
Because "equal" doesn't specify equality of opportunity or equality of outcome. Rightists and libertarians beleive in the former. Leftists want the latter.
We keep saying that everyone has the same opportunity to make it here, but is that really true if we abolished the public school system altogether (like you are in favor of) and relied on private education.
Kids don't get the same clothing. Some kids have to ride a bus 2 hours to get to school, (like where i grew up), while others drove daddy's car to school and showed up late anyway.
Removing everyones choice doesn't make anyones lot better. Removing parental advantage destroys one of the key reasons parents work so hard for their families.
The equality of opportunity in America is simply this: if you want to do something, the government won't stop you. We were the first society where your bloodline didn't determine your standing in society BY LAW. Kids with rich parents still have certain advantages, but there is nothing in our LAW that prevents you from going as far as your talents and your passions enable you. That is what equal opportunity means. No one can stop you. Only yourself.
It is safe to say that my kid would attend a better school and receive a superior education vs what a single mothers child would receive (if any school would be available at all).
You're confused on two points.
First, there is a public interest in ensuring that any child or family that wants to go to school can do so. There is not a public justification for REQUIRING all children go to the SAME school.
Secondly, the education a kid receives has a lot to do with the kid. A better school can only "give" an education. Receiving it is up to the kid. Bush and Obama both went to cushy private schools, but I have better standardized test scores than either of them [and some kids that didn't get the advantages I had definitely outscore me]
The point is that you might send your kids to a better school, but apart from biological advantage, your kid will really determine how far he/she goes in life. Putting them in a better environment gives them certain advntages, but guarantees nothing. There are lots of rich stupid kids.
What I want is for the government to have no little or not control of WHO teaches and WHAT they teach. I am absolutely in favor of making sure that families that want their kids to go to school have a school to send them to. And unlike public education in the US, I'd let them choose what school that would be. I'd let the school -- and thus the parents, in a competitive school system -- determine which teachers were rewarded, which teaching styles were encouraged for which children, which topics were appropriate for school [as opposed to home], and so on.
the majority of people in this country attended public schools and we are hardly a nation of conformists.
Nonsense. The majority of the people in this country think the government should have more power and should control every aspect of their lives. They may not say it so directly but in broad strokes, they keep electing politicians that beleive and act on precisely that ideology. It doesn't matter whether they want fudge topping or chopped nuts, the ice cream flavor everyone orders is "more paternalism, please".
Look, the president doesn't beleive in public education for his own kids. He just nominated the guy that ran Chicago to run the whole US. Obama had the opportunity to show his faith in the value, the goals, etc, of public education when he lived in Chicago. For his OWN children, he clearly did not trust the new US education secretary to give his kids the education he wanted them to have.
What more damning criticism of public school could there be? Everyone on the left wants public school, except for their own children.
Fuck them. There isn't a ruling class in this country. They'll find out sooner or later.
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