National Health Care
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better read page 16 if you think it is only an "option"
after passed only existing private policy plans are legal..... no new private policies of any kind are to be issued, nor can you modify your existing policy
so in essence yes, there will be no more private sector if the bill goes with just that
edit.... added quote
"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law. "
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Welcome home to the libertarian worldview. We've been waiting for you
Now, are you prepared for the ramifications?
Here's the question people have to be ready to answer: is it acceptable that someone dies because they run out of money?
if that's not acceptable to you, who pays to keep them alive?
- friends
- charities
- government
-- local?
-- state?
-- federal?
You can not get around the fact that keeping people healthy is going to cost money. Somebody's money. Your choices are, let people who can't/won't pay die, or, figure out where the money will come from instead.
Legally, at the federal level, I fully support the "let them die" option. I don't want to be forced to pay to keep californians alive. Regarding California, I think Lex Luthor had the right idea.
I don't want poor people to die, but if its my money that's going to be used to prevent it, I want a say in the matter.
I might say, "me and 9 of my church buddies will spring for your bill, because you're such a swell guy. See you Sunday". Or perhaps the city of fargo migth put out something on the news saying "bob has had a tough life, if you want to contribute to his 'beat cancer' fund, here's the #". Or the state of ND might very well say that everyone in ND will be taxed at 1% on ND reported income to pay for a state health care plan.
I happen to think that coercing me to help others is wrong, but I don't know that there's anything that prevents a state, county, or city government from doing it. But I do know that the constitution doesn't allow it at the federal level.
But ultimately, you have three basic choices
- x number of people will die, without help, for what appears to be lack of money
- y number of people will still die, without help, but some lived because some received money from voluntary donations or other non-coervice arrangements
- z number of people will still die, with or without help, but some lived because some received money that was taken from people via the power of government
In every case, somebody dies from lack of money. Nothing will ever change that.
It's up to you to decide how x, y, and z relate to each other, and what the "cost" of each outcome is. The cost of outcome "z" is that the government can steal any amount of our money it wants to, and give it to whomever it wants to. And people will still die. The cost of outcome x is that mankind realizes that we have no compassion. We will look in the mirror and see that we have no humanity.
The cost of outcome y is that some people die, lots of us feel great about the personal role we've taken in saving some people, and nobody is bitter about the government.
I'm a fan of option Y, personally.
I beleive that nobody deserves the production of others. It doesn't matter that bob "needs" healthcare. If he needs it, he can buy it. If he is unable to buy it, he doesn't automatically get it -- someone has to be stolen from, whether it is a doctor working for free or whether 10 people get taxed to pay the doctor. But no matter the arrangement, Bob's need is being met irrespective of Bob's merit.
Justice demands that Bob should be left alone. If his condition doesn't resolve itself, justice demands that bob should die.
Compassion suggests that some of us will help Bob. The greek word in the bible for unconditional love is "agape" [there are 3 different greek words used in the Bible for love, depending on what kind of love you're talking about]. Christians are commanded to love their neighbors unconditionally. No matter what kind of a rotten scoundrel Bob is, Christians should love and provide for him, even though he does't deserve it.
However, that's what Christians should do -- not what the government should do. If we say the government ought to help anybody whether they deserve it or not, because that's what the Bible says, then that's a clear violation of the establishment clause. The government shouldn't do things for religious reasons.
If we got rid of [a lot of] public health care, funded via compulsion, at the federal level, we'd see a few things happen
- politicians wouldn't keep pandering to the lowest common denominator
- everyone would have more money
- health care would cost less for everyone
- more people would give to charities
- churches and communities would be stronger
- [some of] the needy wouldn't be such entitlement-focused assholes -- they'd be nice because they'd understand that they deserved nothing, and sugar attracts charity better than spite
Everyone should go home and think about this. Say it to yourself:
"Each man is entitled wholly to the labor of his hands and the ingenuity of his mind. Nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that my production cannot satisfy my needs, I am at the mercy of my betters. I have no claim on them; they have no obligation to me. It is right that they should leave me to meet whatever end I may. I am grateful that they have elected to intercede for my sake. If tomorrow, they choose to withdraw such intercession, I must not think ill of them."
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"Each man is entitled wholly to the labor of his hands and the ingenuity of his mind. Nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that my production cannot satisfy my needs, I am at the mercy of my betters. I have no claim on them; they have no obligation to me. It is right that they should leave me to meet whatever end I may. I am grateful that they have elected to intercede for my sake. If tomorrow, they choose to withdraw such intercession, I must not think ill of them
This^
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you know what... the more and more that this goes on the more I can't believe it. I've finally realized that my viewpoint is that of a conservative, and a capitalist. I am tired of the socialization. Of the governments interference on the private sector. Between health care, GM, the mortgage companies, they are just being allowed to take too much power, and it continues with this nationalized health care garbage. I'm tired of people thinking things are owed to them. go out and work for it. Then weigh your options based on your age, your risk, and the cost as to if it is an investment that you want to make or not. It is not your right, it is a privilege in my opinion. Work hard for the things you want, and need, don't rely on someone to provide it for you.
another point is what about the insurance industry in the private sector. in a time when we need to create jobs, and stimulate this economy, how many more thousands of jobs will be lost when the government takes this over? what happens with the government's inefficiency makes this fail? will they pour millions, and billions and trillions more dollars into it, further indebting our country to the point that it may not be able to be saved? then what?
they don't even know where the money is going to come from for this.
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Often i wish i was running for a high office of some sort (which will probably happen eventually) . Heres my argument right now.
"So you want free, nationalized health care? We already have it! Join the military and you can have all the health care you want, preventative in the way of yearly checkups, free emergengy service at any of the countries thousands of VA hospitals, and full utilization of the electronic medical records obama is preaching about. Then you will also see the inherent problems associated in a government run system, from long wait lines, to the usual piles of extra paperwork that are required for a very simple procedure. Not to mention the quickly escalating cost, and inefficiency of the system"There you go be a man and join the fucking military if you want free healthcare. Trust me, it sucks! 6 months waiting for something simple as an eye exam! Sad thing is alot of the people that are begging for this are such sallies, gays, and metros, they arent man enough to make it in the military, even the air force lol
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from what i've been hearing from various other people and the little news that i watch/hear (with all of the lies, right now, it just infuriates me even more), it does sound like all employers are at least going to be required to make health insurance available to all employees. that's the only thing i like, but i suppose that depends on if "affordable" becomes part of the equation.
what's affordable? 10% of your pre-tax income? post-tax? 20%? 30?
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out there;282672 wrote:
from what i've been hearing from various other people and the little news that i watch/hear (with all of the lies, right now, it just infuriates me even more), it does sound like all employers are at least going to be required to make health insurance available to all employees. that's the only thing i like, but i suppose that depends on if "affordable" becomes part of the equation.what's affordable? 10% of your pre-tax income? post-tax? 20%? 30?
They are going to be forced to offer health insurance to all employees. I suppose somebody who is incapable of getting a job where health insurance is offered rather than being forced to provide it would like this idea.
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Here is a post I made on another forum.
Ok, I gave up reading this thread about half way through the 3rd page. Here is my take on the current outrageous medical costs and my theory on a few things that could help the cost go down.
- Smokers - I would have to guess that over 75% (and probably higher, but I don't have facts backing it up) of smokers find themselves in the hospital at least once in their life for a smoking related cause. A lot of causes are life threatening cases like lung cancer, emphyzema (sp?), etc.
Much like the points that have been stated about our eating habits and how the FDA and the US Gov't should regulate the food that is put on store shelves, but why do they not BAN smoking. Yes, I said BAN. Smoking does not have ONE SINGLE BENEFIT that goes with it. The only thing it is doing is killing off our own people and putting people in the hospital. Ding Ding Ding. Smokers in the hospital for life saving procuders are not cheap. You think insurance wants to cover this? Nope, but they have too. Ban smoking and insurance companies won't have to worry about it, therefore rates will go down (just with that alone I bet prices would drop).
Now you say that that would be breaking our rights as stated in the constitution? Ok fine. Then we do this. If you smoke and are in the hospital for something that is SMOKING RELATED (and the doctor can prove it), you are held 100% responsible for the full bill. If you can't afford it, tough crap. You can die then. You made the choice to smoke in the beginning, now you can shell out the money to keep your self alive, or just die. Simple.
- Alcohol related hospital visits.
If you are a severe alcoholic, my views are the same as that of smoking. If you are putting your life in danger by consuming that much alcohol, insurance should not be covering it. As I said about smoking, if you are going to put your life in danger (and others), you have to pay for it 100%. No if's, and's, or but's.
Now you say.. What if this alcoholic is driving and kills someone. Since I life is not replacable, insurance would be there to cover the person's life who was lost, however, the alcoholic would be held 100% responsible for ALL injuries to himself/herself (medical bills, auto damage bills, etc). Insurance SHOULD NOT be covering crap like this.
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Sue happy people causing doctors insurance to be expensive (which in turn makes healthcare more expensive):
As someone stated before, the loser should be paying everything. OUT OF POCKET. Insurance should not cover it. The loser should be held 100% responsible for paying 100% of the bills associated with the court process, lawyers, etc. This itself will stop people from being sue happy as they have a risk of losing their whole life over sueing for a dumba$$ reason. -
Worthless visits to the hospital:
If you are sneezing for 3 hours straight, stay the hell out of the hospital. The hospital is there to provide care for those who need it. Not for some hypochondriac who thinks they are going to die because they have a minor sneeze. I refuse to go to the doctor unless I'm in an outrageous amount of pain. Hell, I went for 3 weeks with a broken arm before I finally went in. People need to stop being ******* and going to the hospital for every little thing.
Or to stop this, we raise the minimum the insurance will pay. Say.. 300 bucks per visit. Most visits are way under this (for the walkin clinic per say). ER is different as those are emergency procedures. But if your going to the walking for a minor cold and you want the doctor to prescribe you some cough medicine with codine or whatever the case is, you should be paying 100% of the visit. No insurance on the visit, no insurance on the medicine, NOTHING. Patient is 100% responsible for the full cost. This will cut down on the small worthless visits (that insurance companies end up paying money for (little or a lot.. some is more than none), which will in turn lower the prices.
- Our school system
Our school system's are far insuperior to that of other countries. Why are a HUGE majority of doctors foreigners? Because they are EDUCATED. Our school system in the United States is TERRIBLE. Elementary school is getting tougher forcing the kids to learn more, but high school is a complete joke.
Let me put it in perspective for you. I never went to class and when I did, I slept through it. I never did my homework until about 45 minutes prior to class. Meaning, it was all BS to get the credit. Tests come around, I smack a A on the tests with ease. I ended high school with a 3.4gpa and I didn't do ANYTHING. That's sad. Someone like me should have failed high school.
Our school system needs to be informing our citizens more on health that it does. If I remember correctly, I had 2 or 3 mandatory classes (from 7th grade to 12th grade) on health related stuff. There should be MANDATORY classes taken on the health related aspect of life. This would properly inform our citizen's of how to keep themselves healthy.
Ok, my figures are going numb from typing and I gotta get back to work. Call me a moron or what not, I look forward to hearing your opinions on my statements.
Fuck the gov't control health care. Find ways to reduce the cost of medical aid. That will then reduce the cost of insurance. If you lower the cost of medical aid enough, insurance will be way more affordable.
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are you sure that part of the increased cost of medicine isn't hospitals providing care first and then getting money second? that's one of the more ridiculous problems. where else can you drive away with a car and then get billed a month later?
"oooh, you're going to ruin my credit? so what? i already got what i came here for, and it won't get you anything!" -
i think if we nationalize anything it should be grain belt. it was amazing as usual tonight.
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torbs;282697 wrote:
Personally, I think it'd be great to be able to shop for insurance across state lines...Oh and this whole nationalized healthcare stuff...See Canada/Europe...Not fun.Again, I'm not in favor of Nationalized Healthcare....however, we usually just here the horror stories of Canada's healthcare. I have lots of friends/relatives up there that love the system. They also have the option of purchasing private health insurance as well. Like I said, I'm still not hoping for nat'l healthcare, just throwing out a competing perspective.
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Yes they do. Not everything you hear on the news is true. It is supplemental insurance that guarantees them earlier access and over things not covered (Dental, vision, etc....)
Insurance accounts for 10% of Canada's GDP, whereas it accounts for 17% of the US GDP.
The largest reason for the long wait in Canada is because of the severe shortage of Dr's and Nurse's there. Which coincidentally is part of the reason why we have expensive insurance here. Not everyone that wants (and is qualified) gets to be a Doctor. I can't remember who is directly responsible (AMA maybe?) for choosing who qualifies.
Essentially the supply of Doctors is artificially limited in the United States of America.
The number of Doctors is artificially limited to keep Doctors wages high.
The supply of Doctors in the United States of America is limited by the number of places in Medical Schools for Doctors to be trained.
Every year far more qualified students are rejected by Medical Schools than are accepted.
You could easily have ten times as many Doctors Graduated each year if Medical Schools did not severely limit the supply of Doctors.
This would be with no reduction in the quality of students that are accepted to Medical School.
Often due to Political considerations in the United States of America, far less qualified students are accepted to meet affirmative action requirements.
Much better qualified students are rejected and forced to find another profession other than medicine even though they are far better qualified than the affirmative action students that are accepted.
If you had approximately ten times as many openings for Medical Students as you do today, you would not have the anomaly of highly qualified students being rejected and forced to find another profession, while less qualified affirmative action students are accepted and permitted to become doctors.
With far more Doctors you would have much better quality Medical Care at much lower prices bacause of competition.
If you want to get the cost of Medicine down, I recommend that you encourage your Politicians to dramatically increase the number of Doctors Trained each year in the United States of America.
Sounds like protectionism to me and/or monopoly creating (essentially).
(And yes, I know that frivolous lawsuits and malpractice insurance are a huge factor as well....also insurance costs spiked in the 80's when prescription drugs were allowed to advertise their products on tv/magazines/etc... which created an artificial demand and a huge pressure for doctors to provide drugs that were probably not medically necessary...I don't need to know about every drug on the market, that's what I pay my doctor to know)
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Uh, the pile of ex-canadians I work with tell me that private health insurance, in any way we'd recognize it in the US, is illegal in Canada. "Nobody should have it better than anyone else".
Regarding the AMA limiting the number of doctors in the US to keep wages high -- agreed 100%. The AMA is a labor union that has the full force of law behind it. Same thing with the Bar association. Naturally the lawyers that write the law write their union into the law of every state. Their doctor friends get the same benefits.
But that has nothing do to with the fundamental lack of choice and lack of performance issues that Canada suffers from. Besides, this thread isn't about canada, and stop pasting shit [and if you're not pasting, stop fucking up your capitalization ;)]
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I did paste some of the above.....I was trying to find the wording I wanted to use and make sure I had it right....turns out someone else had put down nearly exactly what I wanted to type...so I didn't reinvent the wheel.
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Grr;282583 wrote:
All i know is that almost every dem up for re-election next year will be defeated by somebody, and that is a great thingUnfortunately, I think you are wrong. I think that some seats will be lost, but not huge numbers.
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Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Yes they do. Not everything you hear on the news is true. It is supplemental insurance that guarantees them earlier access and over things not covered (Dental, vision, etc....)Insurance accounts for 10% of Canada's GDP, whereas it accounts for 17% of the US GDP.
Who says that is a bad thing?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
The largest reason for the long wait in Canada is because of the severe shortage of Dr's and Nurse's there. Which coincidentally is part of the reason why we have expensive insurance here. Not everyone that wants (and is qualified) gets to be a Doctor. I can't remember who is directly responsible (AMA maybe?) for choosing who qualifies.Could the shortage of Doctors and Nurses be due to the careers not being appealing as a result of their national health care system?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Essentially the supply of Doctors is artificially limited in the United States of America.The number of Doctors is artificially limited to keep Doctors wages high.
Hmm, I thought that there were a limited amount of doctors due to licensing and education. Aw hell, lets let just anybody be a doctor. That can't be a bad idea... er...
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
The supply of Doctors in the United States of America is limited by the number of places in Medical Schools for Doctors to be trained.Every year far more qualified students are rejected by Medical Schools than are accepted.
Proof? And what is the reason that they were rejected?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
You could easily have ten times as many Doctors Graduated each year if Medical Schools did not severely limit the supply of Doctors.This would be with no reduction in the quality of students that are accepted to Medical School. So the medical schools are to blame for a supposed shortage of doctors which results in higher health care costs?
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
Often due to Political considerations in the United States of America, far less qualified students are accepted to meet affirmative action requirements.Much better qualified students are rejected and forced to find another profession other than medicine even though they are far better qualified than the affirmative action students that are accepted.
I'll agree with you there but affirmative action is a whole 'nother argument.
Trafik Jamz;282760 wrote:
If you had approximately ten times as many openings for Medical Students as you do today, you would not have the anomaly of highly qualified students being rejected and forced to find another profession, while less qualified affirmative action students are accepted and permitted to become doctors.With far more Doctors you would have much better quality Medical Care at much lower prices bacause of competition.
If you want to get the cost of Medicine down, I recommend that you encourage your Politicians to dramatically increase the number of Doctors Trained each year in the United States of America.
Sounds like protectionism to me and/or monopoly creating (essentially).
(And yes, I know that frivolous lawsuits and malpractice insurance are a huge factor as well....also insurance costs spiked in the 80's when prescription drugs were allowed to advertise their products on tv/magazines/etc... which created an artificial demand and a huge pressure for doctors to provide drugs that were probably not medically necessary...I don't need to know about every drug on the market, that's what I pay my doctor to know)
How about instead you get the fucking politicians out of everything and let the market work?
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