thrown timing belt on DSM
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here we go
ticklemedaly wrote:
Most of the time on a dsm the teeth get ripped because something is causing way too much drag on the belt. Most cases it is the oil pump. They are notorious for having low oil pressure when the mileage gets high, mostly caused by owners not changing the oil every 2k miles like they are suppose to and becoming a hell of a drag on the system due to worn parts.I guess i cant say ive ever seen an oil pump lock up on a DSM, but then again, i dont touch them anymore...
im guessing a coolant pump would be a bit more likely.Trained and certified? fuck, even I am trained and certified. It just dont mean shit.
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slowvo wrote:
here we goI guess i cant say ive ever seen an oil pump lock up on a DSM, but then again, i dont touch them anymore...
im guessing a coolant pump would be a bit more likely.Trained and certified? fuck, even I am trained and certified. It just dont mean shit.
I havn't seen them lock up, but I have seen them have so much drag on them that they dont lubricate the whole engine....this speaking from experience with a 91 tsi I used to own. caused the belt to have teath ripped off and bent 4 valves....
As of the engines being replaced....it has gotten so cheap to get a used engine and install it, compared to disassembling it and fixing the damage done to it, and not having a decent enough warrenty to cover a long period of time.
And trained and certified?....Just backing my ass up so others dont think that I dont know shit, you have to have some credentials. Yes, a good backround of having many years of experience is good too, sometimes even better. But most businesses and customers want a mech/tech that has credentials too. Plus they pay better.
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What does drag on a belt have to do with lubricating the whole engine?
in theory, if a oil pump is getting bad, there is more play in the gears, which would make less of a drag.
It would have to be one hell of a drag to load the belt enough to shear the teeth off of it.Has anyone ever seen a oil pump coked up so much that it wont spin? or there is a big drag?? I personally have seen many oil pan's and pickup's clogged with gunk that you have no/low oil pressure, but never had a problem with the pump itsself.
Now from a shop standpoint, i can see why one would want to replace the entire engine. its easier to do, less to screw up, warranty, ect.....but done right, its not too hard, and pretty common to just do a head.
As far as a pay standpoint, pretty much all dealers have standard pay rates. it doesnt matter what your credentials are, age, skill, ect. It comes down to how efficent you are at diagnosing and fixing cars. I know guys that never went to school, have no credential's, and get paid the same (or more) as the senior tech that is ASE master/L1, master certified in their line, Ect.
customers dont care about individual's, just hang a ASE sign up, and they will be happy.
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ever seen an alternator with bad bearings? can you say goodbye belt? i have had 2 alternators die in my saturn (can't handle excessive high rpm driving apparently), and what ryan is saying about drag is true. in fact, with the first one (died about 1.5 years ago in the winter) i could see smoke and sparks coming from under the engine when i looked to see what the smoke coming through the vents was coming from. needless to say, i stopped driving it that night and took it in the next morning.
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Yeah I think that replacing the complete engine is unnecessary also. 9 times out of 10 when a DSM timing belt fails or breaks, it bends a few valves or all the valves, so you have the head rebuilt with new valves, put it all back together properly and you're good to go. No sense in replacing a complete motor when the bottom ends in these things are very very strong. I could see replacing the motor maybe IF the oil pump was locking up like that. That means that there's something getting into the oil pump and chewing up the oil pump gears, or the case, or both. But that would mean that there's metal coming from somewhere else in the motor, so then it could actually be justified to replace the whole motor. Now about the whole used motor part of this, I don't think it's nearly as wise to get another used motor instead of having one rebuilt. I would much rather see someone rebuild the motor that they have, that way you KNOW that everything in there is good, and not all beat up by whoever the jackass is that had the motor before you. And honestly, if you price it out, getting a motor rebuilt really isn't all that expensive, and could possibly even be done for the same price as a used motor. Plus that way you have all new gaskets, timing belt, oil pump, water pump, etc..... That's my $0.02 anyways.
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out there wrote:
ever seen an alternator with bad bearings? can you say goodbye belt? i have had 2 alternators die in my saturn (can't handle excessive high rpm driving apparently), and what ryan is saying about drag is true. in fact, with the first one (died about 1.5 years ago in the winter) i could see smoke and sparks coming from under the engine when i looked to see what the smoke coming through the vents was coming from. needless to say, i stopped driving it that night and took it in the next morning.are you talking about a timing belt?
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treimche wrote:
Yeah I think that replacing the complete engine is unnecessary also. 9 times out of 10 when a DSM timing belt fails or breaks, it bends a few valves or all the valves, so you have the head rebuilt with new valves, put it all back together properly and you're good to go. No sense in replacing a complete motor when the bottom ends in these things are very very strong. I could see replacing the motor maybe IF the oil pump was locking up like that. That means that there's something getting into the oil pump and chewing up the oil pump gears, or the case, or both. But that would mean that there's metal coming from somewhere else in the motor, so then it could actually be justified to replace the whole motor. Now about the whole used motor part of this, I don't think it's nearly as wise to get another used motor instead of having one rebuilt. I would much rather see someone rebuild the motor that they have, that way you KNOW that everything in there is good, and not all beat up by whoever the jackass is that had the motor before you. And honestly, if you price it out, getting a motor rebuilt really isn't all that expensive, and could possibly even be done for the same price as a used motor. Plus that way you have all new gaskets, timing belt, oil pump, water pump, etc..... That's my $0.02 anyways.Yes, ideally it is best to have the motor rebuilt....but after you concider all the little things involved with rebuilding it and show the estimate to the customer, and actually find a used one and show that estimate to the customer....9 times out of 10 they dont want to shell out the extra cash and just have a used one put in.
Also, if the oil pressure hasn't dropped enough, it is possibly ok to have it serviced and everything else done too at the same time...but it ends up being as much or more. The one I had didn't lubricate the balance shaft enough to were it dug a huge hole in the block, oversizing it enough to were the only way for me to save it is to have a bearing about 1/4-3/8" thick all around. And this is the balance shaft that is drivin directly by the oil pump. I should have just placed a used engine in it, I regret it to this day.
But as of the others, both had enough damage to were it was CHEAPER to place a used engine in it.....customers love things that are cheaper.
And for the credentials....I HATE DEALERS!!!! Mainly because all they want are techs with experience, and even if you do, it is still hard to get employeed by them. And for pay wise, I make more than most of them, only ones that make more are the ones with at least 20 years of experience and have been with that company the whole time.
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Labor on most swaps is well over $1000 alone.
I think a valve job under $1000 with new water pump, timing belt, balance belt, sounds like a damn good deal to me.
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Questions for the same topic....i know there is a few set mile intervals where dsms should replace the timing belt does anyone know of what that is off hand?
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Damn, i gotta quit and join the aftermarket shops, thats where the money is at.
ticklemedaly wrote:
And for pay wise, I make more than most of them, only ones that make more are the ones with at least 20 years of experience and have been with that company the whole time. -
burnteclipse wrote:
Questions for the same topic....i know there is a few set mile intervals where dsms should replace the timing belt does anyone know of what that is off hand?
every 60k
www.dsmtuners.com -
now I, recommend at the most 60K....hondas, they recommend 90K, at the same time, I recommend at 60K at the most. with these type of engines and them being interference types, it is best to replace them earlier than the manufacture recommends, just for safety and security. Turbo charged dsm's, I recommend at the most 50K, while normal ones should be good to 60K.
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Jim wrote:
Ok... unless I'm confused, the last time I checked: replacing valves in a head, machine work, whatever else <200. Used motor 1500-3000Yes, if the motor only needs a belt, and the valves replaced, it isn't that bad, but it isn't that cheap.
The reason I would replace a motor on a dsm is mainly if the engine has suffered major damage from the belt braking AND it has a history of low oil pressure for a significant amount of time. In this case, replacing at least 4 valves, machining the head, labor to get to all of it, flushing the coolant and changing the oil, replacing the oil pump....which is the front case assembly on a dsm...replacing all the belts including the tensioner and highly recommended pulleys, all front seals, and the labor to do all the front engine stuff....well, you get the point, it adds up quickly and gets to be way too much. Now, with the oil pump having low pressure for too long prolongs engine wear, you more likely than not have damage to the rings, bearings, and every other friction surface in the motor.
Now this is all the work that an experienced technician who has prior experience on a dsm would recommend, especially if the motor has high miles.
Also, most used motors for a dsm go for 900-1500, maybe 1800 at the most for a turbo one. With even half the labor then replacing all the parts. And we can warranty a used motor longer than the repair work that would have been done. Now, which would you chose as the customer? The AVERAGE Joe Schmo out there who just wants the motor to run to get them to point A from B. Not us others who would do all the performance mods and would pay the extra cash to have it rebuilt to a higher performance motor.
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Good luck finding anything with less then 150,000 miles on it for $900.
Used 4G63 motors DO go for 1500-3000.
The average joe schmo who buys a turbo DSM (now days remember, they are cheaper, so a younger crowd can afford them), beats the piss out of thier car.
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