riddle
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Oh, and I am off work now for the weekend. I have no plans since I am on standby.
If it takes me creating MS paint masterpieces to illustrate what is in my head, so be it. You have to think out of the box on this, and a little knowledge of aircraft helps. Faber presented this problem to me last night, and he'll tell you, I went on for the better part of an hour or so, debating with myself and reading the shit on MNSportCompacts. When I woke up, I stood firm in my beliefs that it cannot get off the ground.
-Peter
1991 240SX
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AFSil80 wrote:
Exactly!There is no wind flowing against you as if you were running on a track! Therefore, lift cannot occur!
Yes, but Peter, the wheels do not create any thrust of any kind. Think of it like this: Before the landing gear retracts, the wheels are spinning by the wind movement, although not as fast as say the treadmill will make them spin, they are still moving in the same fashion and will theoretically increase with wind speed but the plane will be unbothered. If the plane starts moving, which it will, it will take off. Yes, it won't take off without moving forward, but I don't think thats what people are trying to prove. If they are, then thats a totally different story and yes you are right. I think you might be trying to prove the wrong thing. If a runway was a HUGE treadmill, it will take off. The wheels will not provide enough resistance to keep it from moving.
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a harrier doesnt need to be moving forward at all to take off, its all about thrust. with enough of it, it will move forward because hey, three pieces of rubber are no match for 90000lbs of thrust
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exactly what mitch said, what conveyor belt can move as fast as a jet?
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god damnit.....
Yes, wheelspeed has NOTHING to do with the aircraft taking off, it is its FORWARD MOVEMENT (or rather the air rushing over the wings) that causes it to lift off. On an aircraft speed is not measured at the wheels either, it is measured as air speed (the speed the plane is moving through the air) so if a plane is moving forward through the air (with wheels still rolling on ground) at 25mph and the conveyor belt turning in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION at 25 mph it DOES NOT stop the plane dead in its tracks BECAUSE the wheels do not generate the forward movement, nor do they negate any forward movement if a force is being applied to them opposite of the movement of the aircraft, it will just cause them to spin approximately twice as fast as normal. It is because the wheels have no affect on a planes forward movement that the airplane can in fact lift off when the plane is moving forward at the appropriate speed. NOWHERE in the riddle does it say that the airplane remains stationary in relation to the ground, it states that as the plane travels forward, the conveyor belt spins backwards at the same rate, but the backwards travel of the conveyor belt has little/no affect on the planes ability to move forward since it is pushed forward by its jets/propellor/whatever and does not get its forward drive by applying power to the wheels. Again, the airplane does NOT remain stationary, it is in fact moving forward and therefore is able to take off.
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AFSil80 wrote:
Lift has nothing to do with how much thrust. .
Yes, you are correct there. The engines are pushing the A/C forward the tires are not making it go forward.AFSil80 wrote:
It's all about the windspeed hitting the leading edge..
I think you better do a little more research on lift.AFSil80 wrote:
So again, if the wheels are freerolling and the conveyor belt is doing the same, the plane won't move. ..Let me ask you this, how will the conveyor even start to rotate if the plane has not even moved forward, explain that one to me??
AFSil80 wrote:
The wheels keep the airplane supported until it builds up enough airspeed for the bernoulli effect to take place...I agree that is one reason, the other is that it would create alot of havoc during landing w/out them...
AFSil80 wrote:
If it can't hit that speed, and it won't while it sits on a belt that can keep up, there will be no forward motion.It will hit that speed..
Let us look at this way, say you put a bicycle on a treadmill, and you push it forward and the treadmill begans to speed up at the same rate as the tires, not at the rate you are pushing it. With this concept are you stating that you will not be able to push the bike off the treadmill pushing forward????
AFSil80 wrote:
You have to think out of the box on this, and a little knowledge of aircraft helps..I think 5 years in the Marine Corps working on the flight line troubleshooting F-18 fighter jets maybe makes me a little bit qualified here. Not just watching them take off and land like you and listening to other people who have no clue as to what the fuck they are talking about...
Enough said,, probally not let's hear it...
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the plane will take off, the converyor belt will simply make the wheels spin faster realative to the speed of the forward motion of the jet and the reverse motion of the conveyour belt.
because the thrust of the jet engine is pushing the plane forward, and the wheel axels are free spinning, once the applied friction of the wheels to their axels is negated by equal force from the thrust, the plane will make forward motion until it reaches speed to make lift, then if will fly.
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I think its safe to say that me and Bill just killed this topic
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Anyone else wanna tell us why this what we have posted is false?
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AFSil80 wrote:
Is there windspeed acting on the plane as a result with the thrust being provided?No, there is windspeed acting on the plane as it moves forward which is a result of the thrust pushing the plane forward. The plane doesn't care that its on a conveyor belt, so long as the wheel can spin and the plane isn't bolted to the conveyor belt, it will take off because it will be moving fast enough IN RELATION TO THE GROUND to cause air to flow over the wings thereby causing lift. Case closed.
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XJHEAD wrote:
I think you better do a little more research on lift.No, I know how it works. I was simply using the leading edge of the wings as a reference. Downforce on top, lift on the bottom.
how will the conveyor even start to rotate if the plane has not even moved forward, explain that one to me??
It won't. I know that.
I agree that is one reason, the other is that it would create alot of havoc during landing w/out them...
And a lot of unneccesary work for me, haha.
It will hit that speed..
Let us look at this way, say you put a bicycle on a treadmill, and you push it forward and the treadmill begans to speed up at the same rate as the tires, not at the rate you are pushing it. With this concept are you stating that you will not be able to push the bike off the treadmill pushing forward????
But isn't that the whole point of the argument? To see if an a/c will take off while the surface the wheels rest on move in the opposite direction at the same speed, aka, being stationary? If that is not the point of the argument, or there is some other factor that hasn't come clear, then I have been arguing for the wrong side.
I think 5 years in the Marine Corps working on the flight line troubleshooting F-18 fighter jets maybe makes me a little bit qualified here. Not just watching them take off and land like you and listening to other people who have no clue as to what the fuck they are talking about...
Enough said,, probally not let's hear it...
Not saying you're unqualified, or saying that I'm overqualified. And I do more than just watch them take off. I work flightline as well. I'm a structural mechanic, aerodynamic smoothness and structural integrity for the a/c is a critical part of my job.
-Peter
1991 240SX
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