Is GOD real?
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DaveH;199834 wrote:
Sorry Chuck, I can't let that slide...Civil Rights: "The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S."
The 13th and 14th refer to slavery and citizenship: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I don't see any civil rights that homosexuals are missing out on?
That was part of the copy/paste part......
I would argue that civil unions (I am a believer that marriage is a term reserved solely for man and wife) are not allowed (for the most part) in this country. I'm not pro-gay or anti-gay, I think that if they are citizens that obey the law, they should be allowed as many rights under the law as the next couple....whether that be adoption, benefits, civil unions, tax incentives, survivorship rights, etc... Do I think that the way of the homosexual is correct? No! But I also don't feel that Muslims/Jehovah Witnesses/Buddhists/Hindu/etc... are right, but I don't see anyone saying that they can't have any of the rights I've listed above. But this isn't about politics (well....not supposed to be)
The question should really be, how many of you think homosexuals will be condemned (due to this part of the bible) yet still eat shell fish?
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2wheeler;199874 wrote:
See, to a person such as myself, this is way too much of a cop-out. How about just not sinning?It's impossible not to sin. Sinning isn't so much an act we do, but it's part of our human nature. We are born with a nature to "do the wrong thing".
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
tjamz;199915 wrote:
The question should really be, how many of you think homosexuals will be condemned (due to this part of the bible) yet still eat shell fish?Justifying bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior?
All sin leads to condemnation, not just homosexuality.That said, Leviticus is the old testament/old covenant. There is language in there about having to do burnt offerings for sins, it says you can't eat pigs, etc. This all changed with Jesus, which was when the new covenant started.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;199916 wrote:
It's impossible not to sin. Sinning isn't so much an act we do, but it's part of our human nature. We are born with a nature to "do the wrong thing".
IMHO, you can control the amount of your sinning....to a certain extent.....most people CHOOSE not to do this though. -
2wheeler;199928 wrote:
IMHO, you can control the amount of your sinning....to a certain extent.....most people CHOOSE not to do this though.Do you consider just breaking the ten commandments sinning? Do you consider gossip sinning? There are many things in this day and age that are socially acceptable but are by the bibles standards considered sins. Like was discussed earlier. Society keeps on trying to lower the Bibles standards to fit their lifestyles etc, but God is a never changing true and perfect God. We need to live up to His standards.
Chuck...read the first two chapters of Romans. I think you'll find that God isn't just against homosexuality, but all types of "flesh sins". In verse 20 it is a very good example how we have no excuse to not believe in God because of what he has made through nature.
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fallguy;199930 wrote:
Do you consider just breaking the ten commandments sinning? Do you consider gossip sinning?
I don't see why that is relevant? I'm not the one labeling myself a Christian. I don't follow a book to lead my life. You should answer those questions.fallguy;199930 wrote:
There are many things in this day and age that are socially acceptable but are by the bibles standards considered sins.
If I am understanding you and Dave correctly, in your lives, what society deems acceptable carries absolutely no weight in what you do. What the bible says is law.(No revisions, remember?)fallguy;199930 wrote:
I need to live up to His standards.
Fixed. Do you? "I try", or an equivalent answer, IMO, is equal to a "no" answer. -
2wheeler;199934 wrote:
I don't see why that is relevant? I'm not the one labeling myself a Christian. I don't follow a book to lead my life. You should answer those questions.If I am understanding you and Dave correctly, in your lives, what society deems acceptable carries absolutely no weight in what you do. What the bible says is law.(No revisions, remember?)
Fixed. Do you? "I try", or an equivalent answer, IMO, is equal to a "no" answer.
You don't follow THE book, but you seem to know the difference of what a true Christian is vs a poser.
Yes I do believe the Bible is the operators guide to life. I do believe that the Bible in certain books is talking to specific people groups though. Jews vs Gentiles.
I know it's impossible to live a sin free life. If it was, then we wouldn't need a Saviour. If you think anyone on earth is living a sin free life your mistaken. The word "trying" is a word meaning that I know I will fail because I am human and I am a sinner by nature, but it with Christ in me that gives me the strength to overcome temptation. "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world" If you take a look at great men in the Bible, you'll find men that have many flaws and failed miserably at trying to live a sin free life. The difference is that they knew that and knew that they needed a Saviour to free them from their sin.
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2wheeler;199934 wrote:
I don't see why that is relevant? I'm not the one labeling myself a Christian. I don't follow a book to lead my life. You should answer those questions.You held up your friend from work as "walking the walk", I think Matt was asking what you are referencing as being "the walk".
2wheeler;199934 wrote:
Do you? "I try", or an equivalent answer, IMO, is equal to a "no" answer.Then you simply don't understand sin and human nature. Read Romans chapters 1, 2 and 3. That explains it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=51;
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
fallguy;199865 wrote:
I believe that God being the perfect creator of the universe wrote his word through man. It's God inspired.
A quote from the link below:
" Although a diverse group of human authors wrote the books of the Bible in differing styles over a long period of time, the Bible really has only one author—God. Since God is perfect, holy, and true, we know there are no real contradictions in His Word, no matter what it seems at first. So we must delve more deeply.As one expert says, “If the Bible is truly from God, and if God is a God of truth (as he is), then ... if two parts seem to be in opposition or in contradiction to each other, our interpretation of one or both of these parts must be in error.”
matt, one of my favorite responses to the argument that god is perfect (see: definition), is when one looks at craftsmen of various skills. a layman makes many errors when trying his hand at making something; as his skill improves, so do his creations and he makes fewer errors. at perfection (by definition), there will be no errors and everything will be flawless. are we agreed? you know where i'm going with this, but i will carry out the point for those that aren't sure.
with a god that is perfect, shouldn't everything that this god creates be perfect? you illustrated this in reference to the bible, so, i'll take that for your implied acceptance.
taking the perfection of god as a given, aren't we also perfect? if so, why is it that we cannot properly grasp the message/s?though it may seem like it, this is not an argument for atheism, instead, it is a deep-seated question and point of friction that troubles many people.
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DaveH;199943 wrote:
You held up your friend from work as "walking the walk", I think Matt was asking what you are referencing as being "the walk".Right, but he was asking the question of me. I don't follow the book. If what I do and what the book says to do are the same thing, to me, that is coincidence. I didn't consider WWJD in whatever decision I made. As far as my friend....like I said, he does what the book says. I don't know anyone, who follows the bible like he does. This include you and Matt.
As far as my feelings on sin, I don't think I am appropriately getting my point across to you two. I think it would have to be a face to face discussion to be clear about it.
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obviously we are not perfect.
God created us with free will so that there'd be meaning in choosing him, and with the ability to do evil so there'd be meaning in choosing not to do so.
God created us the way he did for the same reason guys still marry real women instead of robots that are perfect cooks and perfect sex machines. There's nothing attractive about a woman that doesn't have the choice to not stay with you.
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In terms of "rights" for homosexuals..
Rights do not derive from group membership. All individuals have the same rights under the law. However, adoption, driving, conceal & carry, marraige, etc, are not "rights" at all. They're something else and the government has appeared to have a say in what is and is not allowed in each of those cases.
Just to repeat: you do not get your "rights" from the group you identify with. Your rights are intrinsic to the fact that you are an individual.
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out there;199957 wrote:
matt, one of my favorite responses to the argument that god is perfect (see: definition), is when one looks at craftsmen of various skills. a layman makes many errors when trying his hand at making something; as his skill improves, so do his creations and he makes fewer errors. at perfection (by definition), there will be no errors and everything will be flawless. are we agreed? you know where i'm going with this, but i will carry out the point for those that aren't sure.
with a god that is perfect, shouldn't everything that this god creates be perfect? you illustrated this in reference to the bible, so, i'll take that for your implied acceptance.
taking the perfection of god as a given, aren't we also perfect? if so, why is it that we cannot properly grasp the message/s?though it may seem like it, this is not an argument for atheism, instead, it is a deep-seated question and point of friction that troubles many people.
Everything was created perfect by God in the beginning. It was Adam and Eve's disobedience(sin) that caused the decay of everything from that point on. I believe when Christ does return again and after all of Revalation is fullfilled and he reigns again will Earth and all that he created be restored again. ie- no sin.
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2wheeler;199958 wrote:
Right, but he was asking the question of me. I don't follow the book. If what I do and what the book says to do are the same thing, to me, that is coincidence. I didn't consider WWJD in whatever decision I made. As far as my friend....like I said, he does what the book says. I don't know anyone, who follows the bible like he does. This include you and Matt.As far as my feelings on sin, I don't think I am appropriately getting my point across to you two. I think it would have to be a face to face discussion to be clear about it.
I just find it interesting why you think your the expert on knowing if someone follows the Bible more than another. Your co-worker could be running a porn ring site online and as far as you know he's a Christian at work. It's your interpretation of the Bible and what a Christian should be is where your basing everything. What binds all Christians together is the fact that we all are sinners and need a Savior. How we live our life is a reflection on how deep that commitment to our Savior is. We try and follow the Bible out of gratitude on what he did for us...ie die on the cross and take our punishment. Now because of that God looks at us as sinless because of the shed blood of his son. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
As far as sin goes it's simple. All sin in God's eye's are the same, therefore you break one commandment you are guilty of all. End of story.
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2wheeler;199958 wrote:
Right, but he was asking the question of me. I don't follow the book. If what I do and what the book says to do are the same thing, to me, that is coincidence. I didn't consider WWJD in whatever decision I made. As far as my friend....like I said, he does what the book says. I don't know anyone, who follows the bible like he does. This include you and Matt.You say he does what the book says.... HOW DO YOU KNOW?
THAT is what Matt was asking you, what are you referencing when you say he walks the walk? If you don't know what the bible says and means, how could you possibly come to a conclusion? That is why he was asking you what you consider sin to be. FYI, I'm not bashing your friend at all, I don't know him, I'm sure he's a great guy. I hope he follows the bible as well as you think he does, and hopefully gives you some good advice.
Let me know when you read Romans and if it helps. The link I gave you is in a modern translation so it's a very easy read.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;199975 wrote:
Let me know when you read Romans and if it helps. The link I gave you is in a modern translation so it's a very easy read.I read your link, and it really didn't clear anything up. This is all information that I have previously heard. Here is the part of it that actually interests me.
He will judge everyone according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
This is a part of religion that I have a problem with.
Let's take person "A": Lives a nice, quiet, clean life. Let's just say, he lives a life like you do(Just to eliminate the subjectiveness of my adjectives). He marries, adopts 3 children because he would rather give these children a home/family rather than bring more children into the world. He is very kind to everyone. He lets everyone live how they want to and he does the same. Just your general decent person. He does not believe in god.
Person "B": Not a very nice guy. Your general d-bag. Steals when given the chance. Ends up killing 2 people and going to jail. Has always legitimately, genuinely, believed in god. Asks for forgiveness from god for his sins.
When they both come before god for judgment, person B goes to heaven, person A goes to hell.
Is this correct, or not?
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2wheeler;199984 wrote:
I read your link, and it really didn't clear anything up. This is all information that I have previously heard. Here is the part of it that actually interests me.He will judge everyone according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
This is a part of religion that I have a problem with.
Let's take person "A": Lives a nice, quiet, clean life. Let's just say, he lives a life like you do(Just to eliminate the subjectiveness of my adjectives). He marries, adopts 3 children because he would rather give these children a home/family rather than bring more children into the world. He is very kind to everyone. He lets everyone live how they want to and he does the same. Just your general decent person. He does not believe in god.
Person "B": Not a very nice guy. Your general d-bag. Steals when given the chance. Ends up killing 2 people and going to jail. Has always legitimately, genuinely, believed in god. Asks for forgiveness from god for his sins.
When they both come before god for judgment, person B goes to heaven, person A goes to hell.
Is this correct, or not?
If person A hear's the good news and rejects it, doesn't acknowledge he is a sinner and needs a Savior then person A will go to hell even though he was a "good" person.
If person B lives a terrible life and at some point repents and turns from his/her wicked ways and acknowledges that he needs a Savior then he will go to heaven.
In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says "For it is by grace you have been saved , through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by WORKS, so that no one can boast.
I would think it is a good thing to know that it doesn't matter how bad you are in your life time that there is always hope for you.
Now if person B repents and then continues to do those bad deeds then one would have to wonder if he was serious of repenting.
You can't get to heaven by doing good works. "For I am the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father by by me" = Christ is the only way.
Ethan, I am really sorry that I don't meet your expectation of what a true Christian should be. I'll work on that.
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