In the late 1920s the German economy collapsed....

[integra_gsr98]

if they want to make more money than yes, they should find a different career. my friends that teach went into it knowing full well they were never going to make a ton of money.

[MisterCMK]

amicheze;214800 wrote:
So basically you're saying that teachers are worthless and that if they want to make more money they should find a different career?

I never said they are worthless. If they are into teaching for the money they chose the wrong career but nothing is stopping them from changing careers.

[Guest]

DaveH;214714 wrote:
I'd hardly say that society is becoming more "advanced", it is becoming more socialistic tho. Capitalism allows you the freedom to bust your ass to become a professional ball player and make the kind of money they can bring in. It also allows you the freedom to work at McDonalds and barely make it by if you choose. In our country you get paid what you are worth, not what the government says you are worth. I like it that way, you have incentive to work hard and do well for yourself and your family.

I agree with everything Dave is saying here, though I disagree (in practice, not theory) about his flat tax idea of everyone paying the same dollar amount....even though in theory it should make everyone work harder so they can overcome that tax hurdle every year by a higher amount....

My thoughts are (since we know the IRS is never going to actually go away), if you choose to work hard enough to earn only $1 a year, you should owe the IRS $.10 if you worked hard enough to earn $10,000,000, you should pay $1,000,000 in taxes. This, in my opinion, would also spur people towards advancing themselves as the 10% tax begins having less of an overall impact on you as you move up (Basic food, clothing, etc.... is approximately the same for everyone....or rather everyone could choose to spend the basic amounts necessary to survive, and those that earn above that amount would be able to better save towards their futures.)

As for teachers, I think they should get paid more for what they do...but remember who pays them...the Gov't. Look at how many schools have inadequate teachers/teachers who do it for the paycheck only (not necessarily here) yet they get paid the same as some of the best teachers in the school district....guess what, the best teachers either move to better districts (private schools sometimes) or change careers if they want a raise......now do we really want the Federal Gov't controlling healthcare if it will just bring out the mediocre doctors for the general public while the best & brightest either switch careers or move on to a private practice that doesn't accept the federal insurance program? I'm fairly happy the way it is thank you. I like being able to have my current insurance pay my bills should I need to go to Mayo Clinic or similar....I'll gladly pay a few bucks a month to have this option as well.

[thrash]

teachers being underpaid is kind of a myth. Public school teachers get paid more than their counterparts in private school, even though kids from the latter do better on standardized tests. private schools also have a much better student:teacher ratio and much better teacher:administrator ratio.

Government run schools are horribly inefficient, and the assinine policies they operate under drive the best teachers away in droves. The system appears to be geared for mediocre empire builders to surround themselves with people who do not challenge them and who's primary objective is a stronger collective bargaining position.

As public school teachers are public servants (they're government employees, and every govt employee is a public servant that should be easy to fire for non-performance), allowing them to unionize ought to be illegal.

When I went to college, most of the kids going into k-12 education were sorority girls that were persuing the Mrs degree. My wife did one or two classes in that program and the stuff she talked about doing was pretty embarassing.

There are great teachers in the public school system but they are the exception. The system breeds mediocrity and anyone that does a great job does so inspite of the circumstances, not because of it.

My wife and I plan to homeschool our son.

Most homeschooled children in the US come from single-earner families that make below the median income and where the wife is the primary teacher and has no college education. They still do significantly better on standardized tests than the average publicly schooled child. So there you go. So much for all the "value" that the system adds to our kids.

The taxes we pay to fund the school system turn into like $10k/year/child. Of course, only a shred of that actually goes to educating a child. There's no way we're getting our money's worth.

[Guest]

No offense towards you thrash, but in my personal experiences with kids that have been home schooled.....the parents should be brought up on abuse/neglect charges as their kids, while excellent in book smarts, lack the ability to hold a job because they had virtually no people skills. Yes, that is a broad & bold statement, but of the kids that I knew, that was the case.

[thrash]

That's fine. I hadn't considered it until I met some kids that were extremely well adjusted and found out that they were homeschooled. For a variety of reasons I'd like to try it. The cheif one is ideological -- I don't think other people have much business in stipulating how my child is educated, or in the case of public school, indoctrinated. I think the social and intellectual development advantages are secondary.

The idea that you think some parents ought to be brought up on neglect/abuse charges kind of plays into it. I think the state should have way less power to take kids out of homes. How could you call homeschooled kids that don't hold down the sorts of jobs you think they ought to be "neglect" ? Neglect is starving your kid or locking him in room with no toilet for a week. Neglect is not "failing to condition the child for a McJob". There are plenty of traditionally schooled kids that can't hold down a job (and can't keep themselves out of jail). Which public educators would you file neglect charges against in those cases?

When I was younger, my mom was already dead and I was living with my dad & stepmom. My crazy grandma (from a different state) filed some kind of child services complaint and there was the very real possibility of me being removed from my dads custody. I had to do interviews and all that kind of stuff. My dad kicks ass and the charges were bullshit, and luckily nothing came of it. However, the idea that some dumbass state employee has the arbitrary power to take my other parent from me is pretty unsettling. The result of this arbitrary state power is that most parents I know are afraid to spank their kid in public.

The state is broken and so are its systems. I won't subject my children to any of it if I can help it.

[MisterCMK]

So are you making blanket statements about all public schools?

[thrash]

Yes. All public schools are run by governments.

How much of a problem that is in actual practice of course depends a lot on the school district and the school in question, and even what year it is.

Fargo public schools are probably a bit behind the curve in terms of forcing kids to read "Johnny has Two Daddies" and other social activism you hear about in coastal school districts, so in practical terms, there may not be as much to get upset about.

I think though that no matter how good the local teachers / administrators are, conventional schooling isn't even the right setting for kids. For instance, at least through elementary school boys and girls (in broad strokes) need vastly different levels of physical exertion. Boys have shorter attention spans and mentally and physically mature later. The current grade 1-5 system is more attuned to effective learning for girls.. most boys would do better with more recess periods more often and with more vigorous activity.

Since the 70s, it's been political suicide to suggest that boys and girls are gasp different, so I don't know of any mixed-curriculum public gradeschool programs around here (but to be fair, i've not looked).

I also question the wisdom of trying to teach kids how to be adults by putting them in a prison with a 30:1 inmate to guard ratio. The horrible bullying and cliquisms and all that go largely unchecked whether you're talking public or private schools. If you've read or seen "Lord of the Flies", respressed, less violent versions of that fundamental issue are working themselves out in every school in America -- kids are seeing what they can get away with, with no effective "law" or "oversight" to keep them in check. There are no strong adult role models and as such there are some definite behavioral defects.

A fair bit of research has been done on this kind of stuff. It's not like I'm bloviating my unique thoughts on the subject. My own (and my wife's experiences) in public K-12 left something to be desired and so we've looked into other options and even philosophies of how children are best educated.

You might find the following interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Caldwell_Holt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto

I should make it clear -- my thoughts are not a reflection on the merits of any particular teacher or any particular school. It's not like I hate teachers or something. I am just not convinced that the public school system is effective at the things I want it to be effective at for my own child(ren). I think that there are a lot of teachers and administrators that have perverted the compulsory education system into the mess we have now, and that's a problem, but a solvable one. But even if it were to be solved, and we only had the best most wonderful people in public schools, that wouldn't change my reservations about if the system is even the right approach educating and raising children.

Teachers bemoan that parents don't get involved. Well, I plan on getting involved.

[DaveH]

Thrash, if homeschooling doesn't work out for you (I wish you the best of luck) you might want to consider private school. I couldn't be happier with the school I chose for my kids. It's not cheap, but it's definitely worth it IMO.

[GarageAlchemist]

tjamz;214845 wrote:
I like being able to have my current insurance pay my bills should I need to go to Mayo Clinic or similar....I'll gladly pay a few bucks a month to have this option as well.

Thats fine for you and I that have medical benefits through a 3rd party, but id be interested to see someone post up a quote for their Health insurance that is not through their parents or work. If you dont have a job that is good enough to have health benefits, then you wouldnt make enough money to purchase it on your own. ONce again this works out for you and i, but not for the working poor.

Regarding school systems, I'll second what Chuck said. Every single home schooled person that i have encountered have almost no people skills to be spoken for. They cannot carry on a conversation, they can't laugh in a social setting, they tend to be either very quiet or very loud. They are just awkward to be around because they aren't used to being around other people. Not to mention that they have a very skewed view of what the world is like. They either think everyone is out to get them, and are very paranoid, or they trust everyone, which isn't good either. Most that ive met think that everyone is a good person, and have no concept of the ability of people to be bad. Even if you are the single best home school parent ever, i believe that there are things that children can only learn in a Community setting. When i child is made fun of for doing something, yea it sucks, but they learn what is acceptable behavior in society. In a community setting children learn a bit about politics, about making and keeping friends, about compromise, about deception, they learn some people you can trust, and some you cant. They also have the chance to expirence many different activites, and learn their own strengths and weaknesses, and also teamwork. I think that removing your child from the community is not the best best solution, but rather putting them into a better community. There are two awsome private schools in the local area that i have first hand expirence with, and will be sending my children to one day. I suggest you look into one of those.

Concerning "Neglect" i would very much consider a parents failure to prepare their child to hold a job as neglect. Neglect is simply failure to provide a child with the things that they need. So you think a child does not need to be taught how to hold a job?

[Guest]

I pay $600/month for insurance for my family. I would gladly pay double that to keep it in the private sector and out of the hands of government. If I wanted welfare, I'd stop working and get on that program.

The reason I call it neglect is based on my experiences. The parents of the people I know did nothing to prepare them how to interact with people, making them vulnerable in the "real world" to be scammed easier and made them very socially awkward. They lacked communications skills, lacked people skills, lacked almost all skills besides being able to cook/clean/iron their clothes....sorry but the mentally challenged can be trained to do those things. They received no trade-type skills (Shop classes, etc...), no computer skills, no public speaking skills, etc... And 9/10 of them, once they broke free of their parents, ended up as habitual drug users/alcoholics.

I'm not saying you won't do a better job thrash, because I think you have a better grasp than their parents did (most got pulled out of public school because they were teased, or the teachers were "mean" to them). So I think you are really doing it for the right reasons. I do encourage you to consider at least some extra-curricular activities for them to be involved with so that they may be around their peers and have the chance to interact and grow emotionally.

[GarageAlchemist]

tjamz;214947 wrote:
I pay $600/month for insurance for my family. I would gladly pay double that to keep it in the private sector and out of the hands of government. If I wanted welfare, I'd stop working and get on that program.

So do you think that a member of the working lower class can afford that? ^^^

[PSiedTSi]

I had a big long post typed out, but got bored of it before I finished it, so I only have one thing to say now lol.

I played football in HS with a kid that was homeschooled. He was completely capable of fitting in, etc. In fact, I didn't even know he was homeschooled for a couple of months. A ton of people from our school were friends with him, etc.

Homeschooling= not all bad, but definitely not for me or my kids. I also probably won't be sending my kids to a private school(depending where i end up living). To each their own!

[MisterCMK]

GarageAlchemist;214948 wrote:
So do you think that a member of the working lower class can afford that? ^^^

I don't give a shit if they can. Sorry to be so blunt, but the working lower class needs to worry about themselves as do I. If they cannot afford the health insurance that Chuck has then they best look for a cheaper/different plan or get a better job.

[Guest]

Tad218;214014 wrote:
The media did not even come close to showing the whole thing. And Wright did nothing but tell the truth. He said we killed way more people, including more innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki than were killed on 9/11 and and didn't think twice about it. He talked about how Truman's own war diaries tell that Japan had already wanted to end the war and that we knew they were going to surrender even before dropping of atomic weapons.

He talked about how America has treated black people, has killed so many wrongfully, and they try to make you say "God Bless America". Do we really deserved to be blessed by God? Hmmm...

God Bless America

So you believe everything he says with researching historical facts? I love ministers don't get me wrong, I grew up a pastor's kid. But not everything that comes from the pulpit is true or how God feels, and that's where DISCERNMENT is crucial.

Black people have killed white people wrongfully, we can point fingers all day long. Who's to say our country didn't rip the Indians off worse, it all depends on your point of view. Both sides of my family imigrated. Even if my grandparents were part of the KKK, that had nothing to do with me. The son should not bear the sins of the father IMHO.

About the atomic bombs, I dunno it kinda worked fine. It's sad that it had to happen but how can you skip over Pearl harbor? We have a great relationship with Japan now to the best of my knowlege.

[MisterCMK]

The past is the past....

[Tad218]

Mazdaspeed6;214968 wrote:
So you believe everything he says with researching historical facts? I love ministers don't get me wrong, I grew up a pastor's kid. But not everything that comes from the pulpit is true or how God feels, and that's where DISCERNMENT is crucial.

Black people have killed white people wrongfully, we can point fingers all day long. Who's to say our country didn't rip the Indians off worse, it all depends on your point of view. Both sides of my family imigrated. Even if my grandparents were part of the KKK, that had nothing to do with me. The son should not bear the sins of the father IMHO.

About the atomic bombs, I dunno it kinda worked fine. It's sad that it had to happen but how can you skip over Pearl harbor? We have a great relationship with Japan now to the best of my knowlege.

I don't disagree with you. I don't think Reverend Wright would either and I think his comments were taken either out of context or too literally. There's plenty of great people in this country and no where I'd rather live but the country itself (the people we put in charge of representing it) have made some pretty unforgivable mistakes.

[Guest]

Tad218;214972 wrote:
I don't disagree with you. I don't think Reverend Wright would either and I think his comments were taken either out of context or too literally. There's plenty of great people in this country and no where I'd rather live but the country itself (the people we put in charge of representing it) have made some pretty unforgivable mistakes.

Not trying to be a prick, my response was based on your statement and I quote

"And Wright did nothing but tell the truth. "

I dunno I'm pretty tired today, am I missing something?

And nobody deserves the blessing of God, me included. But that's the beauty of it, He chooses to bless us anyway. I personally believe abortion and the legalization of gay marriage can also take away the blessing of God in this country too... But I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

[Tad218]

Well he told the truth as far as we've made mistakes and probably don't deserve to be blessed by God (not his exact words) and you're right in that we all sin or have our own views (not atomic bomb sin but you know) as a country and as individuals but our forgiving God will bless us anyway.

[GarageAlchemist]

MisterCMK;214967 wrote:
I don't give a shit if they can. Sorry to be so blunt, but the working lower class needs to worry about themselves as do I. If they cannot afford the health insurance that Chuck has then they best look for a cheaper/different plan or get a better job.

In that case i hope that you never get elected to a local office.