Help your 11 year old dodge the draft!

[PSiedTSi]

thrash;245879 wrote:
But the feds weren't going to seize me out of my home if my dad didn't want me to go for some reason.

I'm worried this is different.

The key there is that *you *are worried about that. IMO, I think you are completely overreacting. I HIGHLY doubt what you described will ever happen. I mean are you fucking serious? Do you really think we are going to get just fucking crazy all of a sudden? If that is really happening, we have more to worry about before it comes to that. Just because we may support someone you think is radical doesn't mean he *is *that radical. I understood the point to a certain extent, but get real now.

I agree it should not be federally mandated though, atleast not as forced labor. Like I said previously(and Will), you can incorporate it into a lesson plan, etc. Make it gasp fun instead of as a "job"...

[MisterCMK]

capitlj;245906 wrote:
+1
Although 100 hours a year for a college student might be a bit much. If you work full time and go to school full time you would pretty much have to do all 100 during summer break, while working. I do not agree with being forced as an eighth grader to go and do community service, if its a good idea or not is a moot point, its forced labor period. Now the government can feel free to set up community service programs all it wants, that's a great idea, but allow the community to decide what is right for them. That, however, would require effort and motivation on the community's part. So in order for it to work there would have to be some kind of accountability for the money spent to set up the programs and we are right back to square one.

How is it the community's decision what is right for individual people?

[Rexwagon]

I did volunteer most of my adult life.

[StangerBanger96]

PSiedTSi;245872 wrote:
I understand what you are saying. You already stated you were involved in community service in class, all but stating this plan is already in effect in some places. The point I think you are trying to make is you disagreeing with it being federally setup or mandated, right? If that is the case, then I do see the idea.

If this does end up happening, I think it would work a lot better completely blended in the cirriculum. Kids will be a lot more excited to do it if it's basically a "field trip". Field trips of any kind were the best kind, just to get out and about...

Exactly!

Sure I agree 100% that people should get more involved, help their communities, etc. BUT...

I do not agree that it should be MANDATED by the government that you do it. Our government is too large the way it is, involved in daily life too much the way it is, and this would just be one more way for them to slowly integrate government into every single part of our lives...Like others have said, this isn't freedom. I don't think anyone here is arguing that people shouldn't volunteer or help, the argument is whether the government has a right to force "us" to behave a certain way.

I know it sounds conspiracy-ish but at the same time I think it's valid to ask, if they feel it necessary to volunteer, what is next that they will feel should be necessary? If we're to give them the leverage here then it's just helping set a precedent for future laws and mandates to be passed that say "well now you HAVE to do X hours of this, BUT we'll cut you a break and give you a $4000 tax credit"

I'd be willing to bet MOST college and highschool students don't end up owing on taxes come tax time so the tax credit doesn't do jack shit for help.

[Parker]

Rexwagon;245925 wrote:
I did volunteer most of my adult life.
good for you.... i have no problem with people **<u>volunteering </u>**to do community work.... it seems forcing kids to do it is an infraction on the freedom you put your life on the line for...

[capitlj]

MisterCMK;245912 wrote:
How is it the community's decision what is right for individual people?

I didn't say the community decides what <u>you</u> do, the community decides what <u>they</u> do.

[MisterCMK]

Rexwagon;245925 wrote:
I did volunteer most of my adult life.

Do you want a cookie or something?

[Guest]

So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?

1. Basic education
2. Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
3. Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
4. Instill the core values of this country

Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?

[MisterCMK]

tjamz;245948 wrote:
So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?

1. Basic education
2. Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
3. Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
4. Instill the core values of this country

Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?

Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?

First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?

By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.

Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.

[bubba]

^ very well put

[Guest]

MisterCMK;245954 wrote:
Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?

First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?

By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.

Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.

So...to sum up your post...teaching morale values lowers morale values? I guess I need to stop going to church if that is the case.

50 hours is less than one hour per week, 2 hours per week during school would more than cover it. And yes, I'd say do it during school if at all possible or make it a before/after school thing. Community service is a pretty broad idea, it could be something as simple as cleaning the school after hours, planting flowers at the school, assisting the cooks in the kitchen, offering to tutor other students, cleaning up the neighborhood around the school (trash cleanup, repaint old buildings, etc...) it might mean helping at a nursing home, etc. Many of these things can be done w/ little to no taxpayer dollars.

You are right about one thing though, the word "community service" = Punishment in the minds of many people and it shouldn't. It should be something to be proud of not a form of punishment. It should help set an example of how you can help your friends/neighbors/community.

[Grr]

Agree with thrash and CMK and think chuck is a flaming liberal, once again

[thrash]

Well, at the risk of getting accused of "looking like a fool" for "mentioning God".

Why do you think God gave us free will? Why are people allowed to disobey God?

If man did not have the choice to disobey God, there'd be no value, no merit... no righteousness in choosing to obey.

In many cases, when you do good for others, when you give of your time or your finances or whatever, it helps you at least as much as it helps them.

The problem with coerced giving (taxes), and coerced community service (instead of jail) is that it is coerced. It doesn't do anything to build the right kind of heart inside the person doing the act.

It doesn't matter that "doing good" is a good idea and everyone ought to do it. The issue is that forcing someone to be a do gooder doesn't actually instill in them the values that you want them to have. It doens't actually make them a do gooder. It doesn't make them yearn to help people of their own volition.

An omnipotent God could have made us all bow to his will in our every decision and action. But with doing evil (or simply not doing good) being an impossibility, how would we learn to recognize, value, and enjoy choosing to do what is righteous?

I want people to give generously of their time and money. Even children. But I want them to help people because they've learned to want to, not because if they don't there is a government penalty.

[ruthless351]

bubba;245787 wrote:
Here's a thought, take all the lazy fuckers on welfare and make them do 40hrs of community service a week to make up for the handouts they get... and leave the rest of us that work alone....

GREAT Idea! I love it!

[StangerBanger96]

I'm still just wondering why some people seem to have NO worries whatsoever about the Government forcing people to do something. You can cite all the programs/sources you want about this or that already being mandated, but it only proves one thing...if they get away with it here they'll sure as shit try and successfully get away with it in other places too then.

Give em a couple years and your days will be filled doing shit mandated by the government. Thank God for freedom...

[DaveH]

tjamz;246008 wrote:
So...to sum up your post...teaching morale values lowers morale values? I guess I need to stop going to church if that is the case.

I think you are confusing "teaching morale values" with "forcing community service". To use your analogy, are you being forced by the government to go to church?

[Guest]

Why are people "forced" to attend school? (whether that be home school, private or public, it is still a requirement)

Aside from it being another mandate, I don't see the problem with having teenagers doing more in their communities. I guess my primary argument is that if they are involved in the community and see what their neighbors, businesses, etc.. are like it might just improve the neighborhood. I don't necessarily like that it is mandated, but if it goes through I see more good than harm coming from it. This of course is opinion as is the argument against it.

Just a thought, what if it was an elective class (community service) rather than a required class...but every school was required to offer it as an elective? Could we find some common ground there? Then there would be no requirements for it, but it would allow those who want to participate a program in which they could potentially make a difference.

I know I can't change anyone's mind on this whole topic, and frankly I don't want to. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine..odds are we'll never agree on it, and odds are also that it won't pass 100% as proposed. Instead of writing on a message board, why not call your senators & congressmen and let them know what you think of it? Arguing with me is pointless, arguing with them (and if you can get enough people to do it with you) may make a difference.

As for me, I often times like to argue just for the sake of arguing. MANY of the people on here that know me know that I'm much more centrist than liberal, in fact <u>I think if you were to ask Parker and CMK they'd tell you I'm probably more conservative than liberal.</u> I've voted Democrat 2 times in 4 presidential elections....mostly because I didn't like the republican candidates.

All I ask is that you reserve judgment until he has at least signed a law or two into the books. Like him or not, he is the President of the United States of America as elected by the majority of the voters in this country. In 4 years America decides if they like the way the country is run by either re-electing him or electing someone else. If you can't live with those terms, there are plenty of other countries out there that you can choose to live in.

[Parker]

tjamz;246030 wrote:
<u>I think if you were to ask Parker and CMK they'd tell you I'm probably more conservative than liberal.</u>

lol... truth!

[zbrown]

tjamz;246030 wrote:
I***<u>I think if you were to ask Parker and CMK they'd tell you I'm probably more conservative than liberal.</u>***

Ok, Obama

[StangerBanger96]

I'd say offering it as an option where people could do it in return for their $4000 tax credit is much better...mandating that all have to do it is bullshit.