Help your 11 year old dodge the draft!
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MisterCMK;245912 wrote:
How is it the community's decision what is right for individual people?I didn't say the community decides what <u>you</u> do, the community decides what <u>they</u> do.
> Mitch Hedberg wrote:
> I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just going to find out where they are going and hook up with them later.ASE certified parts specialist.
2004 Impala LS 3.8 -
So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?
- Basic education
- Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
- Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
- Instill the core values of this country
Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?
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tjamz;245948 wrote:
So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?- Basic education
- Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
- Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
- Instill the core values of this country
Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?
Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?
First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?
By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.
Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.
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MisterCMK;245954 wrote:
Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?
By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.
Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.
So...to sum up your post...teaching morale values lowers morale values? I guess I need to stop going to church if that is the case.
50 hours is less than one hour per week, 2 hours per week during school would more than cover it. And yes, I'd say do it during school if at all possible or make it a before/after school thing. Community service is a pretty broad idea, it could be something as simple as cleaning the school after hours, planting flowers at the school, assisting the cooks in the kitchen, offering to tutor other students, cleaning up the neighborhood around the school (trash cleanup, repaint old buildings, etc...) it might mean helping at a nursing home, etc. Many of these things can be done w/ little to no taxpayer dollars.
You are right about one thing though, the word "community service" = Punishment in the minds of many people and it shouldn't. It should be something to be proud of not a form of punishment. It should help set an example of how you can help your friends/neighbors/community.
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Well, at the risk of getting accused of "looking like a fool" for "mentioning God".
Why do you think God gave us free will? Why are people allowed to disobey God?
If man did not have the choice to disobey God, there'd be no value, no merit... no righteousness in choosing to obey.
In many cases, when you do good for others, when you give of your time or your finances or whatever, it helps you at least as much as it helps them.
The problem with coerced giving (taxes), and coerced community service (instead of jail) is that it is coerced. It doesn't do anything to build the right kind of heart inside the person doing the act.
It doesn't matter that "doing good" is a good idea and everyone ought to do it. The issue is that forcing someone to be a do gooder doesn't actually instill in them the values that you want them to have. It doens't actually make them a do gooder. It doesn't make them yearn to help people of their own volition.
An omnipotent God could have made us all bow to his will in our every decision and action. But with doing evil (or simply not doing good) being an impossibility, how would we learn to recognize, value, and enjoy choosing to do what is righteous?
I want people to give generously of their time and money. Even children. But I want them to help people because they've learned to want to, not because if they don't there is a government penalty.
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bubba;245787 wrote:
Here's a thought, take all the lazy fuckers on welfare and make them do 40hrs of community service a week to make up for the handouts they get... and leave the rest of us that work alone....GREAT Idea! I love it!
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you take the wall with you -
I'm still just wondering why some people seem to have NO worries whatsoever about the Government forcing people to do something. You can cite all the programs/sources you want about this or that already being mandated, but it only proves one thing...if they get away with it here they'll sure as shit try and successfully get away with it in other places too then.
Give em a couple years and your days will be filled doing shit mandated by the government. Thank God for freedom...
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tjamz;246008 wrote:
So...to sum up your post...teaching morale values lowers morale values? I guess I need to stop going to church if that is the case.I think you are confusing "teaching morale values" with "forcing community service". To use your analogy, are you being forced by the government to go to church?
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
Why are people "forced" to attend school? (whether that be home school, private or public, it is still a requirement)
Aside from it being another mandate, I don't see the problem with having teenagers doing more in their communities. I guess my primary argument is that if they are involved in the community and see what their neighbors, businesses, etc.. are like it might just improve the neighborhood. I don't necessarily like that it is mandated, but if it goes through I see more good than harm coming from it. This of course is opinion as is the argument against it.
Just a thought, what if it was an elective class (community service) rather than a required class...but every school was required to offer it as an elective? Could we find some common ground there? Then there would be no requirements for it, but it would allow those who want to participate a program in which they could potentially make a difference.
I know I can't change anyone's mind on this whole topic, and frankly I don't want to. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine..odds are we'll never agree on it, and odds are also that it won't pass 100% as proposed. Instead of writing on a message board, why not call your senators & congressmen and let them know what you think of it? Arguing with me is pointless, arguing with them (and if you can get enough people to do it with you) may make a difference.
As for me, I often times like to argue just for the sake of arguing. MANY of the people on here that know me know that I'm much more centrist than liberal, in fact <u>I think if you were to ask Parker and CMK they'd tell you I'm probably more conservative than liberal.</u> I've voted Democrat 2 times in 4 presidential elections....mostly because I didn't like the republican candidates.
All I ask is that you reserve judgment until he has at least signed a law or two into the books. Like him or not, he is the President of the United States of America as elected by the majority of the voters in this country. In 4 years America decides if they like the way the country is run by either re-electing him or electing someone else. If you can't live with those terms, there are plenty of other countries out there that you can choose to live in.
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I'd say offering it as an option where people could do it in return for their $4000 tax credit is much better...mandating that all have to do it is bullshit.
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you make it sound like the feds will ship kids off to some slave labor camp.
when i was in junior high our class had to go work at the dorothy day house in mhd helping the coats for kids drive and then had to write a paper about the experience. it was for a grad standard. oh no, its already started.
my parents were so mad that i was subjected to forced child labor they wrote a letter to their congressmen. here thrash, this is me hitting the sarcasm button, just so we are all clear.
kids are forced to run the mile in phys ed. they are forced to complete grad standards in minn. they are forced to walk up and down three flights of stairs between classes. if it eliminates child obesity, a problem that you and I will be paying for since this monster of a president wants to make healthcare available for everyone, im aboard.
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So you'd also be aboard for the government forcing fast food chains to close because they offer no real healthy nutritional value to people right? And you'd also support the strict limitations that should be placed on manufacturers of candy and other foods deemed "unnecessary" for daily living...
You see where this is going, and don't tell me that's stupid or far fetched because it's something that would help America and that's exactly what you want, right?
If the government wants people to do something, instead of forcing them, they should reward those who choose to and leave those who don't right where they are currently. Otherwise it's just one more law giving the government a tiny bit more control over something they really don't have any reason or right to control.
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yea, no fast food
no cars because it promotes obesity, ride a bike
no xbox or tv because it promotes sedentary lifestyle along with a toaster and a microwave and computers and candy and internet and trains and planes and monster trucks cause they polute and eggs cause nobody can decide if they are good or bador, kids can stack canned goods at the pantry for an hour on tuesdays. your right, your idea is way more rational.
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zbrown;246038 wrote:
Ok, ObamaYes, I voted for Obama. I voted republican for all but one other race. I donated money to the Ron Paul campaign (the only conservative that was running that I actually liked and who made sense).
I hunt & fish, eat red meat, am predominantly anti-abortion as a form of birth control and want my taxes lowered. I attend a Lutheran church, though I was raised Catholic. I would prefer that everyone work for what they get out of life, but also realize that sometimes bad things happen to good people so safety nets are necessary in the short term...I also realize this is abused by some people thereby ruining it for everyone that might actually need it, so there needs to be more oversight.
As I see it, the only major issue I have with the democratic party and the changes they have actually proposed this time around is the anti-abortion issue. That is something that they will need to sort out with the man above. The only major issue w/ the republican party is the social programs designed to help people in need...though the republicans mostly seem to talk a big game on this and not actually follow through with changing any of it. They had absolute power for 6 years, I don't think they even introduced legislation to change welfare.
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Quickly off the top of my head...Chuck you have no problem with the Democratic party/Obama's plan to reinstate the Assault Weapons ban? The fact that he wanted ALL handguns banned? That he wants more guns added to the newer ban?
24valvenotak;246049 wrote:
yea, no fast food
no cars because it promotes obesity, ride a bike
no xbox or tv because it promotes sedentary lifestyle along with a toaster and a microwave and computers and candy and internet and trains and planes and monster trucks cause they polute and eggs cause nobody can decide if they are good or badExactly, now you're thinking rationally
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