National Health Care
-
24valvenotak;283049 wrote:
im glad i have insurance from the state of mn otherwise i couldnt afford to get a headache. or a thumb lobbed off. or an exam for contacts. or my teeth cleaned. btw do you have four hundred dollars for a cavity?! right.just because canada couldnt get it right doesnt mean it cant work. is that how we are basing the plausibility of things these days? if canada has done it or not? get serious. ive lost faith in every last one of you.
Who is using just Canada? Look at any other country with socialized healthcare...when they have the option, those who can afford it go where for the real operations? USA, right here....why? Because socialized healthcare doesn't work for real problems, it creates problems.
-
24valvenotak;283049 wrote:
im glad i have insurance from the state of mn otherwise i couldnt afford to get a headache. or a thumb lobbed off. or an exam for contacts. or my teeth cleaned. btw do you have four hundred dollars for a cavity?! right.just because canada couldnt get it right doesnt mean it cant work. is that how we are basing the plausibility of things these days? if canada has done it or not? get serious. ive lost faith in every last one of you.
It can't work because I don't want to be Forced to spend a single cent of my money to keep you from dying, much less to help fix your teeth or anything else you're upset about.
For every time you think or say "someone else should pay for me", I think "you should die sad and alone".
If you can't pay, but you expect *somebody *to pay, that somebody is going to be me and everyone else. And we're not interested. You don't deserve it.
Regarding "finally getting it right", here's how it always goes down, everywhere:
The government promises people it will take care of them. Then it figures out that's going to take a lot of money. But the costs have been abstracted away from the end users, so everybody wants the best of everything all the time; they're not footing the bill so they have no incentive to economize. This means that all decisions about who receives what become politcal, and the decisions are made by beaurocrats reporting to politicians who only know how to do one thing: steal from the guys that wont vote for them to pay for the stuff they promised to the guys that will vote for them. It all costs too much and eventually politicians are telling which people what they can and cannot have done to them.
If I don't like my car insurance company, I can use a different one to try and get service that fits my needs better.
Now consider that trying to change insurers means trying to fire your government.
Maybe you haven't visited your grandparents enough. Mine spent a lot of time bitching about how social security and war pension money and blah blah wasn't paying enough to keep them alive with their 20 prescriptions that were all some stupid high amount of money per month. Now they're dead.
This is what happens when you think the government will solve everything: people die, bitterly.
-
Trafik Jamz;283055 wrote:
dental insurance is a scam
with insurance, as always, caveat emptor. your insurance agent can be your best friend, s/he can help you save a huge sum of money by directing you the right policy, or helping you avoid wasting money on coverage you don't need.as someone who has sold dental insurance in the past, i will agree with you, but i don't feel that it is a complete waste of money. it depends on the plan. some major medical plans don't cover any dental problems (unless they are causing other issues, etc), and some dental plans cover bigger surgical procedures with higher benefits (elimination periods can vary). some plans are better if you have children. $70/month to get increased benefits and cover the kids? only if the benefit cap is an individual cap and not a policy cap
as a whole, unless you have something planned for right after the elimination period, and the annual maximum benefit is high enough to cover additional procedures that you may use in that year, dental insurance may be right for you. i think it is best to just save $50/month and keep it in a separate account if you feel the need. in the end, you're paying the insurer or the dentist, the cost is almost the same
-
just for the sake of argument, Canada does have a higher life expectancy than the US as do many other countries that have gov't healthcare.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf
Kind of an interesting read that goes along with my statement....you will notice that the US spends more public dollars on healthcare currently than most other countries on the list excluding Norway and Luxembourg and spends WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more private dollars than anyone...yet our life expectancy is shorter.
http://www.irdes.fr/EcoSante/DownLoad/OECDHealthData_FrequentlyRequestedData.xls
^^^^Nice little excel file that breaks it down far beyond what I care to dig into, but others might like to look at the info. Found the file on the following website http://www.oecd.org/home/0,3305,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
-
Trafik Jamz;283088 wrote:
just for the sake of argument, Canada does have a higher life expectancy than the US as do many other countries that have gov't healthcare.LMAO.... yeah health care is the reason.....:rolleyes:.
I would have to argue contrasting life styles play a much bigger role
just look at the obesity rate for one example
31-32% for the US and 17-19% for Canada
-
Maybe we should close our boarders to health care tourists and see what happens??
I can't wait to see all the innovation and discovery go bye bye..... hell just one place in TX spends more on R&R than all of Canada combined
the incentive (profit) for innovation will be gone
-
Grr;283054 wrote:
If you dont have enough cash availible to pay for a simple doctor or dental visit you are one dumb son of a bitch. Only stupid kids that have absolutely no income or drink it all away dont have a couple hundred bucks over the course of 3-6 months to pay off a simple bill. Get a life and go be poor somewhere else if thats the case, or mooch off your parents...Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".
This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
-
PSiedTSi;283097 wrote:
Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
I am working with a company that is taking over the contract from Humana, for Tricare which is the "provider" that oversees military personal.
From what I hear, there's a reason why it was free.
-
Trafik Jamz;283088 wrote:
just for the sake of argument, Canada does have a higher life expectancy than the US as do many other countries that have gov't healthcare.Japan has the worlds longest life expectancy and their health care system sucks; it's a mixed public/private system [and amongst asian nations, it is the most privatized afaik]. But it sucks, from all of the anecdotes I've read about people's experiences.
Americans should be spending the most- we want the best, and currently, we have the luxury of being able to choose to buy it. The "this is how much is spent" argument is stupid. Americans also spend the highest amount in the world on all kinds of other things. We happen to have a pretty kick ass standard of living here.
I was talking to some students in Germany a few years ago. They could not Beleive that i had a 1900 sq ft house. "What do you do with all that space?!" They could not beleive that I had 4 cars. "Why do you need all of them?"
These were affluent kids from affluent families: they were all doing language study programs in Munich.
The rest of the world thinks they've got it good because they don't actually know what they're missing. That especially applies to health care.
Interesting point: procedures that are elective and have no insurance engagement, like breast enhancement or cosmetic surgery, have gotten cheaper over time, not more expensive. When govenrment stays out of the way, the market does its job.
-
oh, quick movie:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPADFNKDhGM[/ame]
Milton Friedman was a brilliant statistician and economist. He is the author of "Free to Choose", and "Capitalism and Freedom", amongst others. He helped develop the modern IRS and tax code during WW2 to fund the war effort. He has consulted with government economists all over the world and was on the economic board of directores of the Nixon, Reagan, and probably a couple of other administrations.
He's smart, and he's on message in this 10 minute video.
-
Gov't controlled health care is NOT the answer to our issues.
Why are insurance rates so high (public's insurance as well as doctor's insurance)?
Simply because this:
Doctors Insurance: They have to cover their ass from the sue happy, money hungry asshat's in today's society.
Personal Insurance: Because people go in to the doctor for the most stupid shit and expect insurance to take care of it.
Easy solution...
Insurance does not cover any visits under a percentage of your income (whatever that percentage may be).
If you file a law suit against a doctor for whatever reason and LOSE the case, you are held responsible for 100% of fee's. This will cut down the people who are just after some quick easy money.
I could go on about other things that shouldn't be covered by insurance, but these two seem to be a good step in the right direction (to me at least..).
Smoking, Alcohol, Drugs : Injuries and medical issues related to these should also not be covered as you know before you start 'killing yourself' what the consequences are.
-
Grr;283054 wrote:
If you dont have enough cash availible to pay for a simple doctor or dental visit you are one dumb son of a bitch. Only stupid kids that have absolutely no income or drink it all away dont have a couple hundred bucks over the course of 3-6 months to pay off a simple bill. Get a life and go be poor somewhere else if thats the case, or mooch off your parents...:icon_scratch: have we met?
thrash;283099 wrote:
Interesting point: procedures that are elective and have no insurance engagement, like breast enhancement or cosmetic surgery, have gotten cheaper over time, not more expensive. When govenrment stays out of the way, the market does its job.elective surgery is cheaper now because insurance doesnt cover it! if insurance covered it what incentive would they have to make it cheaper?
take a bottle of 170 dollar brand name pills and then a generic version for 40. i have insurance so guess which ones get prescribed to me... is that the market doing its job?
just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.
-
Link;283105 wrote:
Smoking, Alcohol, Drugs : Injuries and medical issues related to these should also not be covered as you know before you start 'killing yourself' what the consequences are."drugs"
like the ones that come in an orange bottle?
-
Link;283113 wrote:
No. Pot, cocaine, etc. Not prescription drugs. (Unless your found to be a pill popper)For arguments sake...which do you think are deadlier? Prescription drugs or "illicit" drugs like the evil POT?
24valvenotak;283107 wrote:
elective surgery is cheaper now because insurance doesnt cover it! if insurance covered it what incentive would they have to make it cheaper?take a bottle of 170 dollar brand name pills and then a generic version for 40. i have insurance so guess which ones get prescribed to me... is that the market doing its job?
just an fyi your insurance rates are not affected by ONLY YOU. they are affected by every single client that company holds. you ARE paying for your neighbors heart attack and kidney transplant whether your tiny little brain wants to admit it or not.
So what makes you think an insurance plan that has you and every single person in America as its other members will be any cheaper? Not only will you be paying for your neighbors kidney transplant and heart attack, you'll be paying for johnny crackheads migrane, jill the hypochondriacs weekly suspected heart attack ER visit, and every other problem under the sun. And best of all, it'd be run by the most efficient group on the planet, the GOVERNMENT. YAY! sounds like a great well informed decision!
I think everyone in America (besides politicians) agree that the current system needs to be fixed. The vast differences are between those who feel the Government should run it and basically give everyone "free" healthcare, and somehow believe that this system would both work and run smoothly and effectively. Then there are those who think we need entirely free markets where only hospitals/insurance run it.
Then there are those who I think realize that neither totally free nor totally government ran will work and understand that some guidelines need to be put in place but that overall the Government should stay the fuck out of it in order for it to run smoothly.
-
PSiedTSi;283097 wrote:
Are you fucking serious? Have you ever seen what it costs if you are being treated for cancer? My dads bills we're well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. My mom would be FUCKED right now if it wasn't for insurance. Regardless of how big their nest egg was. Even WITH insurance, it still cost $30-40k with copays etc etc etc. Get real Gary, it's not all about simple doctor visits or cavitys. Some people have REAL problems that cost more than a "couple hundred bucks" on a "simple bill".This isn't about socialized healthcare, it's just pointing out how flawed your "logic" is on being able to fly without insurance.
And btw, weren't you in the service? You probably get damn near free healthcare the way it is, no?
Nice post, glad you didnt even read my post before putting it up. I clearly listed "simple doctor and dental visits", not catastrophic failure. NO PERSON should have insurance that has a deductible of less than $1-2k dollars. If you cant afford that, you fail at life. It would keep worthless visits to a minimum. The only thing that will work is health savings accounts that are 100% tax free, in conjunction with a catastrophic insurance plan where you can set your deductible based on the amount in your HSA. I for one being young have a catastrophic policy with a $30k deductible, its so cheap im not even gonna list what i pay, think of a couple big mac meals a month.
There is no reason for me to have health insurance, and yes dental is kinda a joke unless you get a very specific policy, then your premium is much larger. I have absolutely no problem paying 20-30k if i get cancer or get put in the hospital for 6 months for something. The way it sounds im alot smarter than your family since they paid for insurance and still had to pay the same deductible i do? WTF is that about? My policy implicitly states that i will pay absolutely NO dollar amount over my deductible.
I think ive spent aobut $300 in the past 2 years on medical, and most of that is chiropractic from my military injuries since chiro is not covered there. And dont be mad cause i had the balls to join up and get free yearly checkups, everybody had the opportunity. Aside from my mandatory yearly checkup i do not use it ever, dont need it, and if yo pay cash doctor visits are so cheap its less than me driving to fargo to the VA, dont think ive paid over $50 in my life at the clinic
-
StangerBanger96;283117 wrote:
For arguments sake...which do you think are deadlier? Prescription drugs or "illicit" drugs like the evil POT?There we go, I stared at my post for like 5 mins trying to decide what to write, and I think this is where I was going.
StangerBanger96;283117 wrote:
Then there are those who I think realize that neither totally free nor totally government ran will work and understand that some guidelines need to be put in place but that overall the Government should stay the fuck out of it in order for it to run smoothly.Yup.
-
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ED2006/DAWN2k6ED.pdf
Page 18
Illicit Drugs account for 31% of DRUG ONLY related ER visits
Pharmaceuticals account for 28%Not too much of a difference there...
IIRC Tylenol is deadlier and has worse side effects than Marijuana. If you'll watch the movie/documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" you'll hear one part where a guy is reading all the possible side effects of a "drug" and you're thinking "Holy shit who would use that?" only to find out he's reading the possible side effects from using Vitamin C supplements.
-
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ED2006/DAWN2k6ED.pdf
Page 18
Illicit Drugs account for 31% of DRUG ONLY related ER visits
Pharmaceuticals account for 28%Not too much of a difference there...
IIRC Tylenol is deadlier and has worse side effects than Marijuana. If you'll watch the movie/documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" you'll hear one part where a guy is reading all the possible side effects of a "drug" and you're thinking "Holy shit who would use that?" only to find out he's reading the possible side effects from using Vitamin C supplements.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login