Illegal Immigration
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torbs;310112 wrote:
Therefore, I really don't want them to push through anything until a largely bi-partisan agreement is met (that does not mean 3 weak-spined Republicans join...I'm talking at least half of Republicans in both the House and Senate are on board).Because that'll really happen.
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torbs;310112 wrote:
I have no problem with Mexicans, Latinos, Europeans, Asians, etc. coming here LEGALLY. America was built on those that were less fortunate and believed in working hard, not handouts (not implying that ALL who want to come here are poor). There is a slogan on the Statue of Liberty's base/pedestal that states, "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." I agree with it, whole heartedly, as long as you come here legally. Also, we are a nation of laws, and they should be followed. If you're an illegal alien, you are breaking the law.I'm not implying that all of the pieces below here are applicable to 100% of illegal immigrants, however, what I am saying is that these instances have occurred at some point in time and still are occurring.
I have a question for those that are against intensified illegal immigration laws, and specifically the one in Arizona: Do you know that Phoenix, AZ is second in the world in kidnappings (includes adult kidnappings) next to Mexico City (Phoenix has one kidnapping every 35 hours)? If you lived in that state, you better believe you want the state government to be hard on illegal immigration, especially when you and your family's life is in danger because of it (drug trade is a large portion of it), and the federal government isn't doing anything with it...And for some reason I think what the Obama administration and current Congress would want to do would be something that I would not want. Therefore, I really don't want them to push through anything until a largely bi-partisan agreement is met (that does not mean 3 weak-spined Republicans join...I'm talking at least half of Republicans in both the House and Senate are on board).
lol torbs, you're missing the point of that email. The email is a sensationalist piece of shit that makes the uninformed all hyped up about illegal immigrants by spreading misinformation.
Yes, Illegals can commit Identity Theft, so can terrorists or US citzens, ETC ETC, its not that our government is GIVING THEM those things as a condoned action.
If somebody is born on American soil, they are an American. I find it surprising that you unjustify this by thier parents not paying taxes. Think of all the pieces of shit out there who are LEGAL leaches of the government, do you group them in the same category or different becuase they are citizens?
On health care, if you were traveling somewhere abroad and got your finger chopped off, wouldn't you want to be able to go to the ER even if you didn't have money? The hospitals MOSTLY pay for the un-insured anyway, and the abuse by US CITZENS of this same thing accounts for the vast vast vasty majority of it.
Yes, I believe that people should most likely learn english, but it should not be a requirement. Is it disrespectful of American culutre? Yeah, I think so, I woudln't live in another country that was non-english speaking and not atleast to make an attempt to speak the language there. However, its not government mandated in most cases, and if people here find it useful to write it in multiple langauges, who cares?
What american citzens can't wear an american flag, and where was this? I would argue that is a violation of thier civil rights.
Just let me say this, I think its a horrible waste of our resources to give handouts to illegals crossing the southern border. They need to fix thier own government, and address the issues there instead of running over to us. Now there are some resources that are def. wasted on illegal immigrants that people forgeta bout. Things such a roads, public water, all public works ALL cost money, and are used and abused by illegal immigrants, which pisses me off. Not only that, we waste police resources, prisions, etc etc etc. PLUS most of the money they make here they send back to Mexico.
Don't take me as saying I support them in anyway, I'm just saying this email, would have been much more effective if it had been legit rather then producing hick lies.
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Who fucking cares about the political b.s. They are ILLEGAL immigrants. Whats not to get. ILLEGAL. Fuck I cant even get into canada without a passport.
As for speaking english. My great great grandparents were Norwegian. And they learned to fucking speak english. So if you come to this country you should follow the same ways of the people that came here before you and made this country what it is.
Im sorry Jim i understand what your trying to say, but its people like you that have to be politically correct that are ruining this country.
As for the American flag I made a thread on it.
If somebody is born on american soil they are not american. So your saying if my mom was in japan at the time I was born, on a buisness trip I would be Japanese?
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Bp-08;310155 wrote:
Who fucking cares about the political b.s. They are ILLEGAL immigrants. Whats not to get. ILLEGAL. Fuck I cant even get into canada without a passport.As for speaking english. My great great grandparents were Norwegian. And they learned to fucking speak english. So if you come to this country you should follow the same ways of the people that came here before you and made this country what it is.
Im sorry Jim i understand what your trying to say, but its people like you that have to be politically correct that are ruining this country.
As for the American flag I made a thread on it.
If somebody is born on american soil they are not american. So your saying if my mom was in japan at the time I was born, on a buisness trip I would be Japanese?
No BP, it's people like YOU who don't understand the issue fully, who are ruining America.
Did you not read my post, where I said I do not condone Illegal Immigration in any shape or form?
They didn't speak english when they first got here did they? How many generations did it take for them to fully assimilate? Irish (Catholic), German, Polish, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc etc. America is unique BECAUSE it's a melting pot of different cultures, and EVERY SINGLE immigrant culture has had faced multiple generations of assimilation before they could secure a culutural normatility IN AMERICA.
Who care about the Political BS? Isn't this political issue? And how the fuck am I being politically correct?
Maybe you should look up some of these terms before you just throw them out there.
Bp-08;310052 wrote:
my great great grandparents came here legally from norway, farmed the land, didnt get government handouts. Fuck illegalsDid your Grandparents get the land from the Homestead Act or did they buy it?
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AFAIK the AZ law is just a reiteration of the Federal immigration laws that the Feds are too gutless to enforce.
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Jim;310151 wrote:
lol torbs, you're missing the point of that email. The email is a sensationalist piece of shit that makes the uninformed all hyped up about illegal immigrants by spreading misinformation.I would call it more of a vague and generalizing piece than anything as it is the lack of explanation that makes it seemingly sensational towards being against illegal immigrants. Also, you say that Americans/terrorists do the same thing, i.e. identity theft. Pointing to somebody else's mistakes doesn't mean anything. Should Americans be doing those things? Of course not, but using that as an excuse for illegals to do the same is not the correct way of going about the issue.
And as for the being born here and becoming a citizen...We are the only nation in the world that does it. Is it our law, yes. Does it need to be reformed or taken out? I believe so.
I do respect your opinion on the subject Jim and appreciate that you actually spend the time thinking about the issues. Whether we agree on some things is another matter, but hey, at least we are in America where we can agree to disagree.
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torbs;310171 wrote:
I would call it more of a vague and generalizing piece than anything as it is the lack of explanation that makes it seemingly sensational towards being against illegal immigrants. Also, you say that Americans/terrorists do the same thing, i.e. identity theft. Pointing to somebody else's mistakes doesn't mean anything. Should Americans be doing those things? Of course not, but using that as an excuse for illegals to do the same is not the correct way of going about the issue.And as for the being born here and becoming a citizen...We are the only nation in the world that does it. Is it our law, yes. Does it need to be reformed or taken out? I believe so.
I do respect your opinion on the subject Jim and appreciate that you actually spend the time thinking about the issues. Whether we agree on some things is another matter, but hey, at least we are in America where we can agree to disagree.
Torbs, I think we agree on most of the points here, with a few exceptions.
StangerBanger96;310160 wrote:
AFAIK the AZ law is just a reiteration of the Federal immigration laws that the Feds are too gutless to enforce.Except for the part where they can pull / stop anybody who they suspect to be an illegal over.
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Jim;310173 wrote:
Torbs, I think we agree on most of the points here, with a few exceptions.Except for the part where they can pull / stop anybody who they suspect to be an illegal over.
Good and they check my passport when I cross the border, and I have to call and inform them of my whereabouts if I stay longer. If someone asked for my id id show it.
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I'm glad we spent all those lives and all that money trying to defeat the Soviet Union... only so that in 2010 American cops could stop anyone they wanted and ask "papers please".
There's a very easy way to fix the immigration problem. Remove the incentives for people to come here.
What are the incentives?
- free housing
- free education
- jobs
- free ER treatment
- lucrative drug market
- complete lack of enforcement of border security
Just because something is legal or illegal has no bearing on whether or not it is right. Slavery was legal, then one day it wasn't. It was wrong the whole time, but the law is just whatever the law is.
The US had open borders for much of its history. Take a tour of Ellis Island some time.
I don't dispute that there is a problem. But the approaches being suggested [asking everyone for papers, building a giant fence, building a giant kill-zone]... i mean were you guys paying attention in world history class? Do you think that the government told east berliners that the wall was to keep them IN while they were building it? "Oh fuck! Now that we're trapped inside this place by the goddamn army, I guess we should have thought harder about what they were doing to keep out those evil Westerners!"
Also, Jim is right regarding constitutional protections. These are the rights of human beings. In the US, we wrote them down and decided that the whole point of our government was to protect these human rights. The right to vote is not in the bill of rights. The right to think and say what you like about politicians IS. Anyone standing on US soil has the 1st amendment.
[oddly enough, non-citizens do NOT have 2A rights in the US. The 2A gets the shaft in a lot of ways]
There is certainly a problem with immigration right now. The problem is that the incentives and the law are completely fucking wrong. I work with a number of genius superstar software engineers that would LOVE to be full US citizens. They pay full US taxes, they make more than just about all of you combined [and thus they do a hell of a lot more for you than you do for them, tax wise]. They don't get to vote, their wives get held up at airports, they cannot leave the country to visit family without weeks of paperwork.
We are LOSING top talent people because the US immigration laws are such ridiculous absurd bullshit. Do you understand that people are staying in China -- CHINA -- because China's "we torture you in the balls" bullshit communist party seems like less of a hassle to some people now? That's embarassing.
We make it as hard as possible for people who want to work hard and be real Americans to do so. Because we are stupid. And we make it trivially easy for people who want to mooch and break our laws to do so. Because they are a reliable block of voters [and future voters]. The amount of voter fraud by immigrants for the democratic ticket is pretty legendary, and the progressive wing is fully invested in having a permenant dependant class of voters. Also, the minimum wage and labor protection laws have made hiring someone in America almost impossible. The progressives REFUSE to deal with economic reality: their economic policies have destroyed the US economy and low-end jobs. Yet the economy must function, and this labor must come from somewhere.
And so the dems cannot stop the tide of illegal immigrants because they need the cheap labor that they made illegal, and they want a permanant underclass who will vote for them indefinitely.
The only solution, is to remove the bad incentives. It's not an issue of whether mexican immigrants are good or bad people. They are reasonable people making a reasonable choice, given the incentives. Remove the bad incentives:
- remove the minimum wage and other protection laws that make it impossible to hire Americans into low-wage positions
- remove the "must-treat" rules at ERs, so that people can be turned away at the providers discretion
- remove birth-right citizenship for all people. Native-born Americans have just as much lazy-lard-ass entitlement as some of the immigrants do
- remove housing assistance, education, scholarships, etc for all non-citizens (remove it for everybody, eventually)
- repeal drug laws that finance much of the organized crime
- untie the hands of the border patrol and private land owners on the border.
- authorize shoot-on-sight prosecutorial immunity for private land owners in high-crime / high border-crossing areas
Basically, i want all of the people I can get as long as they are willing to work instead of mooch. We cannot make people work, but we can keep them from mooching.
If people want to come gushing across the border to work their ass off, and to be net contributors -- let them.
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Jim;310173 wrote:
Except for the part where they can pull / stop anybody who they suspect to be an illegal over.Correct me if I am wrong because I honestly don't know the intricate details of the law. But, I was under the impression that "thinking a person is illegal" is not a primary offense? IE: You cannot be pulled over just because a cop thinks you are an illegal immigrant. Now, once you've been pulled over, your ID will get checked regardless.
If it is expanding powers to cops to question you for no reason other than your appearance then I can see why people are upset...that's obviously going way too far and would be grounds for a revocation of the law or at least re-writing of it.
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Jim;310094 wrote:
I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but this email has alot wrong with it.1 - A JOB,
yup
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
Nope
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
Nope
4 - WELFARE,
Nope
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
Nope
6 - CREDIT CARDS
Nope
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
Nope
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
Nope
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
How so? Do we get free health care? Are you talking ER rooms?
10- A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
Nope
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
Are you fucking kidding me? You do realize we don't have an official national language.
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT
? 1st amendment?nice
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You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.
StangerBanger96;310216 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong because I honestly don't know the intricate details of the law. But, I was under the impression that "thinking a person is illegal" is not a primary offense? IE: You cannot be pulled over just because a cop thinks you are an illegal immigrant. Now, once you've been pulled over, your ID will get checked regardless.If it is expanding powers to cops to question you for no reason other than your appearance then I can see why people are upset...that's obviously going way too far and would be grounds for a revocation of the law or at least re-writing of it.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;310236 wrote:
You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.Exactly...Kind of like getting a seatbelt ticket when you weren't able to be pulled over for it alone.
How stupid do people think these cops are down in AZ? Honestly, you trust them with a gun, your safety, your life, but can't trust them to use good judgement in regards to reasonably suspecting somebody being an illegal alien.
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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thrash;310220 wrote:
Do you carry your birth certificate with you in the car? No?How about next time you get pulled over, you get thrown in jail for 8 hours until someone finds you one?
no I am white, wont happen.
Ppl keep refering back to when alot of the original ppl emigrated here. But that was then, America wanted Immigrants. They needed ppl to build a country and to work in it. Now We are full, we have enough. Shut down the borders
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Bp-08;310241 wrote:
I carry my drivers license with me......x2....
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DaveH;310236 wrote:
You are correct sir. According to the law: the cop must pull you over for something legitimate. While questioning you about a legitimate stop, if the cop has "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegal, he can ask about your status.No police officer ever stops a car for a BS reason just to get them for something else? I remember quite a few threads on here and other places of people getting pulled over to check tint or loud exhaust and then get a ticket for no seatbelt.
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