Aug 6&7 Street Legal Times
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tjamz wrote:
Basically giving a lot of people shit, because every time I've mentioned FP Green or Red series turbos I keep hearing "Get a real turbo" or "Those are tiny". My question was, if a 20G/Green/Red can run in the 12/11/10 second range, why bother with a larger, slower spooling turbo if we're all gonna be running the same speeds? I'd much rather have the quick spooling turbo personally. I'm not trying to start a big e-fight, you guys have been in the game longer than me, I just wanted to know why the huge turbo mentality.Don't recall saying such a thing but i'll give an explanation anyways. 20G/50 trim etc can run fast but your going to have to push them twice as hard to make the power you can w/ a larger turbo. A FP red is a 60-1. 60-1 can make decent power but they are now pretty outdated. You can run GT series now make much more power and actually spool faster then a 60-1. And for the price of a FP Green/Red you can get into a GT that's gonna make more power and spool faster. For instance the turbo i used on Joe's EVO will make more power and spool faster then old stuff. Take a ride in his car once and just see how quick that thing spools and how smooth it is. Now only if he had a trans that would work.
I'll also use my old talon and Kevins GSX as an example, he used a standard 50 trim for awhile and i used a SC61 which containted a GT compressor. His turbo made 416whp on 30 psi, now on the other hand for a few hundred rpm slower spool up i made the same power 412whp on 20 psi. Less boost=less heat, less heat=less chance of detanation, less detantion=less stress on a motor. And if you got a bigger turbo you always have room for more.
Example #2 i'll use my civic. On a stock motor you are pretty limited @ what you can do. SO in theory to mske the most power w/ what you can actually run your going to need to run a large turbo. For say i were to run a 16G on it @ 10 psi i'd probably be lucky to even break a high 12. Now on the other hand i chose to use a 57 trim which so far so propelled a stock motor SOHC to 11.9 and made 261whp/212trq. Im actually going to run a larger turbo yet and continue to run 10 psi until this one blows. 10 psi seems to be the magical #. To make power you have to move air, little turbo's dont move air unless their @ insane boost levels, high boost levels here are not an option.
Idk i guess i see people all the time in the DSM whining about spool up. And if your that worried about it buy a 16G. For say i were to build another big power car i wouldn't even look @ anything smaller a GT35, and if i were to build a street machine i wouldn't even glance @ anything smaller then a 50 trim, but if your willing to spend the $$ you have a turbo that spools faster then that 50 and makes more power.
Nick
SLS -
i made a bunch of 14.2's at 98
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Whoops made a typo and just had to edit it and Nate you didn't even catch it @ the bottom where i typed if i was building a street machine i wouldn't even look @ anything smallker then i 16G, whoops typo!
Now on the other hand a 20G is a pretty small turbo for a STI, you got 2.5L of disp to deal w/ even a 50 trim i would consider small for that application.
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the flip side of that is that the suby community is seeing faster times out of the Green or Red series than they are w/ SC61's. The GT35R is pretty well regarded by them BUT they spool slower than Reds and definately slower than greens and therefore are usually only used on drag-only type applications whereas the Green & Red are often used in Auto-x and Roadcourse apps. Like I said, not trying to start a pissing match here, just trying to get some additional insight.
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It's a known fact that subaru owners are whiners though.
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Im basing my facts off hands on experience though not w/ what has been said on internet forums. W/ some of the information i have seen people post on forums i would never take what anyone said as valuable information unless there were a proven good source. 90% of the time the guy posting information is dumber then the people reading it, because it seems everyone is a know it all when it comes to internet forums.
My $.02
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If you want something thats gonna spool quick and still be capable of 500hp i'd get into the GT30BB line.
I'd run a 60-1 but only if it was a low boost setup as 60-1 make nice power on low boost but they become drastically inefficient on higher boost and thats where the larger GT series turbo's will take over w/ the quicker spool up and much more power than a 60-1.
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PSI2HI wrote:
Whoops made a typo and just had to edit it and Nate you didn't even catch it @ the bottom where i typed if i was building a street machine i wouldn't even look @ anything smallker then i 16G, whoops typo!Now on the other hand a 20G is a pretty small turbo for a STI, you got 2.5L of disp to deal w/ even a 50 trim i would consider small for that application.
Damnit, I missed a grammar error! I was paying more attention to your narrative.
tjamz wrote:
the flip side of that is that the suby community is seeing faster times out of the Green or Red series than they are w/ SC61's. The GT35R is pretty well regarded by them BUT they spool slower than Reds and definately slower than greens and therefore are usually only used on drag-only type applications whereas the Green & Red are often used in Auto-x and Roadcourse apps. Like I said, not trying to start a pissing match here, just trying to get some additional insight.There is no flip side.
You can't build a car to be great at both drag racing and Auto-X. You can make one to do ok at both, or great at one or the other. I am so sick of hearing people whine about turbo spooling, if you want a little turbo that spools instantly when driving around the street, then don't whine when your car is slow. Same goes for the guy that wants to be fast at the drag strip, don't whine when your turbo doesn't spool at idle. I don't hear as many as the 2nd type of whiners, but it happens. An engine is simply an air pump, more air you put through, the more power you get out(along with more fuel), end of story.
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Turbos that don't spool at idle just need antilag or a two step to help them along, that is all.
Fast spool + wicked fast car = not gonna happen unless it's a v8.
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91nbtsi wrote:
There is no flip side.You can't build a car to be great at both drag racing and Auto-X. You can make one to do ok at both, or great at one or the other. I am so sick of hearing people whine about turbo spooling, if you want a little turbo that spools instantly when driving around the street, then don't whine when your car is slow. Same goes for the guy that wants to be fast at the drag strip, don't whine when your turbo doesn't spool at idle. I don't hear as many as the 2nd type of whiners, but it happens. An engine is simply an air pump, more air you put through, the more power you get out(along with more fuel), end of story.
You are 100% correct, but could the argument not be made that if a Green can get you 11's and maybe even 10's, have minimal lag AND be a reasonable daily driver on a car that is pretty much built from the factory for road course/auto-x, that it would be a good choice for someone who isn't building a drag specific car, but rather something that will do well (not great, but decent) in all avenues of personal use and race?
I agree that larger turbos will make more power at lower boost, the STi block has been proven to withstand 25psi on a bone stock bottom end and last for quite a while, heck my bottom end has been exposed to 24psi+ several times w/ no problems (other than 1 blown exhaust gasket). All I'm saying is that I understand why people get larger turbos when they are going for a racing type application, but it seems noone will even consider a smaller turbo w/ higher boost and less lag as a compromise, even if that compromise can yield (sometimes) similar results at the strip.
To summarize, yes a big turbo is great for dragracing, but I drag race my car less than 1% of the time, therefore a "small" green or red seems like the logical choice.
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tjamz wrote:
You are 100% correct, but could the argument not be made that if a Green can get you 11's and maybe even 10's, have minimal lag AND be a reasonable daily driver on a car that is pretty much built from the factory for road course/auto-x, that it would be a good choice for someone who isn't building a drag specific car, but rather something that will do well (not great, but decent) in all avenues of personal use and race?I agree that larger turbos will make more power at lower boost, the STi block has been proven to withstand 25psi on a bone stock bottom end and last for quite a while, heck my bottom end has been exposed to 24psi+ several times w/ no problems (other than 1 blown exhaust gasket). All I'm saying is that I understand why people get larger turbos when they are going for a racing type application, but it seems noone will even consider a smaller turbo w/ higher boost and less lag as a compromise, even if that compromise can yield (sometimes) similar results at the strip.
To summarize, yes a big turbo is great for dragracing, but I drag race my car less than 1% of the time, therefore a "small" green or red seems like the logical choice.
Yes, you have a good argument. BUT, for myself, and most others on this board, the car is just never fast enough!! Maybe you could put a 50trim(green) on your car, and call it good, I would not be able to do that. I am pretty sure I am going to get another DSM, I miss going fast. It will have a really big turbo, and really high boost;) Maybe I will get yours and Kark's approval to use race gas in even!
Basically, it all depends on what you want out of your car. I started playing with smaller turbos, 60trims;) Just kept moving up.
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91nbtsi wrote:
Yes, you have a good argument. BUT, for myself, and most others on this board, the car is just never fast enough!! Maybe you could put a 50trim(green) on your car, and call it good, I would not be able to do that. I am pretty sure I am going to get another DSM, I miss going fast. It will have a really big turbo, and really high boost;) Maybe I will get yours and Kark's approval to use race gas in even!Basically, it all depends on what you want out of your car. I started playing with smaller turbos, 60trims;) Just kept moving up.
I'm in the same boat as Nate, you'll notice that the turbo in my car keeps getting larger every year.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
Hahaha. Nice Dave.
Bigger = better right?
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91nbtsi wrote:
Maybe I will get yours and Kark's approval to use race gas in even!I've always been a fan of race gas, I run 111 whenever I'm at the track and usually run a blend of 111 and 92 the rest of the time.
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maybe I too will someday build a car that is designed to be a track monster, until then I will work at making my car as fast as it can be with the current parts.
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Turbo5Oh wrote:
you mean not everyones car is at full boost at 2700rpm? boy that must suck!
(just had to rub it in a little)p.s. race gas is for girls
Yeah but also consider turbo 4 cylinders are revving out to 8k, 9k and even higher. We arent seeing full boost until 5k.. but that leaves us 3-4k of power range.
Yeah a v8 spools faster, but it wont rev out as much either, when it comes down to it, a turbo 4 cylinder and a turbo v8 have about the same 3-4k power range.
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