E85 fuel...is it a good thing???

[thrash]

What about the fact that it takes fossil fuels to make the corn tha makes E85? I was hoping to have an enlightened response to what I wrote earlier.

Also, without the outrageous government subsidies, corn wouldn't be anywhere cheap enough to make corn-E85 worth doing. Corn is in absolutely everything because it's so cheap -- artificially.

"Do something" is not a valid reason for political action. I understand the desire to try and develop an alternative energy supply, but corn-based E85 appears to consume fossil fuels right at the start -- during the fertilization stage.

Consider this:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

which is also going on the dakotas.

Note that corn has displaced other grass products all over the US primarly because of subsidies. It turns out that it's worse for cattle, worse for people, and worse for making ethanol, based on the admittedly limited reading I've done.

[inspector01]

You write way to much shit that no one cares to read it all and even consider what you are saying. Shorten it up with just the main points and ppl will get a lot more information from you.

[SPANISH-RICE]

thrash;223776 wrote:
What about the fact that it takes fossil fuels to make the corn tha makes E85? I was hoping to have an enlightened response to what I wrote earlier.

Also, without the outrageous government subsidies, corn wouldn't be anywhere cheap enough to make corn-E85 worth doing. Corn is in absolutely everything because it's so cheap -- artificially.

"Do something" is not a valid reason for political action. I understand the desire to try and develop an alternative energy supply, but corn-based E85 appears to consume fossil fuels right at the start -- during the fertilization stage.

Consider this:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

which is also going on the dakotas.

Note that corn has displaced other grass products all over the US primarly because of subsidies. It turns out that it's worse for cattle, worse for people, and worse for making ethanol, based on the admittedly limited reading I've done.

and what kind of energy is being used to refine fossil fuels for us now? focus that energy into creating ethanol, same difference. everything is being powered by the same stuff right now its just that ethanol isnt as efficient to produce becuase its just getting started. nothing is going to be cheap when you first start making it. it takes a long time to make the production process effiecient. especially with such a small amount of plants making it.

and i didnt say that corn based ethanol was the best route either. im only saying that E85 ( whose ethanol can be from lots of things) should'nt be looked down upon. just because we use so much fuel already and dont have extra space to grow it right now doesnt mean its bad for us. brazil is completly independant on its own ethanol fuel because they embraced it and worked to make it an effiecent process.

the left over biomass from the corn or sugar cane has been used for burning to power refineries and feed livestock. also

[thrash]

inspector01;223778 wrote:
You write way to much shit that no one cares to read it all and even consider what you are saying. Shorten it up with just the main points and ppl will get a lot more information from you.

ok

1. the fertilizer used to grow most of the corn we make is made artificially with fossil fuels.

2. the price of corn is so low because it is subsidized by government. in other words, it's not low at all, your tax dollars are paying for every bushel of corn whetehr you buy/drive it or not

3. If you consider why people say they like E85 -- because it saves us from fossil fuel dependance, and because it's cheap -- it's clear that currently it doesn't do either.

4. There's a great book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" that talks about the role of corn, fossil fuels, and government subsidies in the modern US economy.

I'm wondering how many people are aware of point #1 and if it changes their view on the usefulness of corn-based ethanol.

[Rexwagon]

It takes fossil fuels to harvest the corn and transport it.
Corn is a plant that is hard on the soil compared to other crops, therefore the soil will be raveged.
Ethanol is driving up food costs.

Just the fact that we make this ourselves and it is still expenisive is bogus.

Ethanol isnt as cheap everywhere else. In some states its only 5 cents cheaper than regular unleaded.

For every $1 spent subsidizing ethanol costs consumers $4.

the costs of growing, distilling and blending ethanol into gasoline makes it 51 cents more per gallon to produce that regular gasoline

Also 31% of our corn this year is going to be used towards ethanol. Thats a lot of corn. You think food prices are going to increase??

Brazil has found a better way of doing this with producing ethanol.

[inspector01]

Rexwagon;223784 wrote:
Brazil has found a better way of doing this with producing ethanol.

Thats what most ppl are saying, they are working on making ethanol using scrap crops and anything else that would be waste like crops that aren't usable for food.

[SPANISH-RICE]

Rexwagon;223784 wrote:
It takes fossil fuels to harvest the corn and transport it.

but its doesnt to transport and refine gasoline?

[Guest]

Rexwagon;223784 wrote:
For every $1 spent subsidizing ethanol costs consumers $4.

Proof?

[Rexwagon]

tjamz;223789 wrote:
Proof?

http://www.ncpa.org/sid/2005/20050605.htm

One report by the U.S. Agriculture department determined that every $1 spent subsidizing ethanol costs consumers more than $4
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

[Guest]

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/10-9-95/oilsubsidy.html

[Guest]

Rexwagon;223791 wrote:
http://www.ncpa.org/sid/2005/20050605.htm

One report by the U.S. Agriculture department determined that every $1 spent subsidizing ethanol costs consumers more than $4
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

I came across that report as well. I can't find another report to back it up...especially not a recent one.

[inspector01]

Rexwagon;223791 wrote:
http://www.ncpa.org/sid/2005/20050605.htm

One report by the U.S. Agriculture department determined that every $1 spent subsidizing ethanol costs consumers more than $4
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

The problem with most Anti-Ethanol website links are they are outdated information, your top link is from 2004, so 4 year old information, and your bottom link is from 1995, a 13 year old source. The cost of ethanol has decreased significantly every year. I will find some papers that i wrote about ethanol that showed how much the cost to produce had decreased in a short period of time.

[inspector01]

A few other things to consider:

Although the government subsidizes some of the production of corn and ethanol, it also saves the government some money by providing jobs in production which brings in tax money, and keeps some ppl off unemployment so a lot of this money is offset.

Ethanol is helping keep oil prices down because OPEC is keeping oil prices low enough that Ethanol is not as attractive of an option. If ethanol wasn't available, oil prices would have nothing competing to keep them down.

[Parker]

PSI2HI;223712 wrote:
Rumor has it corn is supposed to rise to $8/bushel which is going to make things interesting.
man, i cant wait for that to happen.... corn futures for december were up to $7.50 at one point... why? because people are planting less of it/ drought and or flood in the mid corn belt... what alot of peolpe dont get is that if the prce for something was high last year (wheat)... dosent mean that it will be high again the folowing year... less corn, higher demand, higher price.. economics... :icon_cheers:

[Parker]

inspector01;223802 wrote:
A few other things to consider:

Although the government subsidizes some of the production of corn and ethanol, it also saves the government some money by providing jobs in production which brings in tax money, and keeps some ppl off unemployment so a lot of this money is offset.

Ethanol is helping keep oil prices down because OPEC is keeping oil prices low enough that Ethanol is not as attractive of an option. If ethanol wasn't available, oil prices would have nothing competing to keep them down.
this may be true... but the sad thing is from what i remember... is big oil owns alot of the ethanol factories

[SPANISH-RICE]

Parker;223806 wrote:
this may be true... but the sad thing is from what i remember... is big oil owns alot of the ethanol factories

what doesnt big oil own

[Joel]

I own a fuel flex vehicle. Do i run it on ethanol? nope, cuz it runs like shit. I believe ethanol is a small step in the right direction. The American public is too stubborn and stupid to realize something until its too late(eg: Fuel shortage/Cost). if only we could implement mass transportation as good as european and asian countries, along with geothermal/wind/solar energy into our homes and commercial property along with simply reducing energy usage and we would have ourselves a much better world.

[Rexwagon]

SPANISH-RICE;223809 wrote:
what doesnt big oil own

ME!!!!!!!!

[SPANISH-RICE]

Joel;223814 wrote:
I own a fuel flex vehicle. Do i run it on ethanol? nope, cuz it runs like shit. I believe ethanol is a small step in the right direction. The American public is too stubborn and stupid to realize something until its too late(eg: Fuel shortage/Cost). if only we could implement mass transportation as good as european and asian countries, along with geothermal/wind/solar energy into our homes and commercial property along with simply reducing energy usage and we would have ourselves a much better world.

if your car runs like shit when you switched over to E85 then youre doing something wrong. you have to have less than 10% of a tank of fuel and then you have to put in a FULL tank of gas. the fuel eye needs to read more than 35% ethanol or it wont switch over to ethanol maps let alone correct for it.

[gsrEK]

his sensor is broke i belive