Help your 11 year old dodge the draft!
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Amen Brotha Smith!
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DrifterExtreme;245878 wrote:
you arn't getting it, it's not that it's so crazy of an idea or that it is just helping the comunity it is about them forcing you to be a humanitarian, if you don't want to help you shouldn't be forced to. it is the right and the responsablity of the parents/family to teach kids how to help and what it means to help. not the government.this is just yet another way they are controlling the way ppl live there lives.
do you ppl even understand freedom? the "freedom" to choose to "not" help.
and will your by far the laziest person i know, the hell if your going to volinteer anywhere.
haha ok matt. I am pretty lazy
i have steady jobs, instead of coming in when i feel like it.and fyi i have to do volunteer work for my fraternity. Last semester i did 46-50 hrs. of work at the YWCA/Childrens Maricle Network. Thats pretty lazy of me.
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But i suppose its not 100% kosher to MAKE them do community service. They could always do it as, not to bring it up again, a field trip style of thing. I remember back in Jr High/High school whenever we went on a trip or anything like that; there were some kids that didn't participate that just went home or w/e. Could possibly do it that way.
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IMO, i don't think it should be required, but if you are taking advantage of stuff like grants/scholarships/loans for college, i don't think it is unreasonable to have this as part of the requirements to take advantage of there programs or benefits. Either way, it doesn't really bother me, there is plenty of stuff required already...
should kids not have to go to school at all if they don't want to?? Doesn't that infringe on their freedoms.
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Rexwagon;245813 wrote:
O no, people having to give back to the country that gives them a place to live. Thrash you should help your kind do this. Maybe if people helped their own country people wouldnt be so ungrateful.Who says that you have to be grateful? That is the great thing about America. I have the choice whether or not to be grateful to live in this country. I have the freedom to despise our soldiers, police, etc that are a part of making this country what it is. I also have the freedom to be appreciative of the wonderful country I live in and do what I can to help.
To those of you who support the forced volunteer work:
If you think it is such a great idea, why don't you volunteer more yourself now or require your own kids (if applicable) to do a certain amount of community service?Quite frankly, I have no obligation to volunteer my time to help an organization. Just like I have no obligation to help my family/friends when they need it. If i feel that I have a moral conviction to help or volunteer then I do so, not because somebody tells me that I have to.
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inspector01;245892 wrote:
IMO, i don't think it should be required, but if you are taking advantage of stuff like grants/scholarships/loans for college, i don't think it is unreasonable to have this as part of the requirements to take advantage of there programs or benefits.
+1
Although 100 hours a year for a college student might be a bit much. If you work full time and go to school full time you would pretty much have to do all 100 during summer break, while working. I do not agree with being forced as an eighth grader to go and do community service, if its a good idea or not is a moot point, its forced labor period. Now the government can feel free to set up community service programs all it wants, that's a great idea, but allow the community to decide what is right for them. That, however, would require effort and motivation on the community's part. So in order for it to work there would have to be some kind of accountability for the money spent to set up the programs and we are right back to square one.
> Mitch Hedberg wrote:
> I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just going to find out where they are going and hook up with them later.ASE certified parts specialist.
2004 Impala LS 3.8 -
thrash;245879 wrote:
But the feds weren't going to seize me out of my home if my dad didn't want me to go for some reason.I'm worried this is different.
The key there is that *you *are worried about that. IMO, I think you are completely overreacting. I HIGHLY doubt what you described will ever happen. I mean are you fucking serious? Do you really think we are going to get just fucking crazy all of a sudden? If that is really happening, we have more to worry about before it comes to that. Just because we may support someone you think is radical doesn't mean he *is *that radical. I understood the point to a certain extent, but get real now.
I agree it should not be federally mandated though, atleast not as forced labor. Like I said previously(and Will), you can incorporate it into a lesson plan, etc. Make it gasp fun instead of as a "job"...
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capitlj;245906 wrote:
+1
Although 100 hours a year for a college student might be a bit much. If you work full time and go to school full time you would pretty much have to do all 100 during summer break, while working. I do not agree with being forced as an eighth grader to go and do community service, if its a good idea or not is a moot point, its forced labor period. Now the government can feel free to set up community service programs all it wants, that's a great idea, but allow the community to decide what is right for them. That, however, would require effort and motivation on the community's part. So in order for it to work there would have to be some kind of accountability for the money spent to set up the programs and we are right back to square one.How is it the community's decision what is right for individual people?
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PSiedTSi;245872 wrote:
I understand what you are saying. You already stated you were involved in community service in class, all but stating this plan is already in effect in some places. The point I think you are trying to make is you disagreeing with it being federally setup or mandated, right? If that is the case, then I do see the idea.If this does end up happening, I think it would work a lot better completely blended in the cirriculum. Kids will be a lot more excited to do it if it's basically a "field trip". Field trips of any kind were the best kind, just to get out and about...
Exactly!
Sure I agree 100% that people should get more involved, help their communities, etc. BUT...
I do not agree that it should be MANDATED by the government that you do it. Our government is too large the way it is, involved in daily life too much the way it is, and this would just be one more way for them to slowly integrate government into every single part of our lives...Like others have said, this isn't freedom. I don't think anyone here is arguing that people shouldn't volunteer or help, the argument is whether the government has a right to force "us" to behave a certain way.
I know it sounds conspiracy-ish but at the same time I think it's valid to ask, if they feel it necessary to volunteer, what is next that they will feel should be necessary? If we're to give them the leverage here then it's just helping set a precedent for future laws and mandates to be passed that say "well now you HAVE to do X hours of this, BUT we'll cut you a break and give you a $4000 tax credit"
I'd be willing to bet MOST college and highschool students don't end up owing on taxes come tax time so the tax credit doesn't do jack shit for help.
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Rexwagon;245925 wrote:
I did volunteer most of my adult life.
good for you.... i have no problem with people **<u>volunteering </u>**to do community work.... it seems forcing kids to do it is an infraction on the freedom you put your life on the line for... -
MisterCMK;245912 wrote:
How is it the community's decision what is right for individual people?I didn't say the community decides what <u>you</u> do, the community decides what <u>they</u> do.
> Mitch Hedberg wrote:
> I'm sick of following my dreams, I'm just going to find out where they are going and hook up with them later.ASE certified parts specialist.
2004 Impala LS 3.8 -
So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?
- Basic education
- Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
- Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
- Instill the core values of this country
Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?
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tjamz;245948 wrote:
So, what is the point of public (or even private) schools in the first place?- Basic education
- Instill some form of work ethic via structured schedules, class assignments, etc...
- Prepare them for the world they are about to enter
- Instill the core values of this country
Mandating this seems no worse/better than mandating physical education programs... w/ Phys Ed you are mandating that people exercise to promote a healthy lifestyle...but what about those people who don't want to exercise and are content being fat? Why should they be forced to participate in this?
Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?
First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?
By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.
Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.
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MisterCMK;245954 wrote:
Are you really comparing physical education to mandatory community service?First of all, physical education in the schools is somewhat of a joke. They teach you the basics of how to eat healthy and then you take a trimester or 2 of a basic fitness/sports/whatever class. This all takes place during the school day AT school. If community service is now mandatory of all students you are making more requirements that are outside of class. How can you be sure that they actually partake in this and don't pencil whip it? Also, are the students supposed to walk to this? If not, think what a burden it will be on the parents to add in one more thing that their child needs to be driven to or have a ride arranged for. It seems to me that this goes against the demoliberals whole schtick on cutting back on energy usage... Now, if you are going to provide transportation via school busses to these community service events, is this going to come out of my tax dollars? Say a community cannot afford to fund this without cutting jobs. Now, you have people that are out of work because you have to pay to get the "free" labor to their assigned site. How do you think this makes Joe Taxpayer feel when his job is cut so that his kid can get a ride to do his mandatory community service?
By making community service mandatory you are starting to slide down a slippery slope. What else is going to me mandatory? You may think this is silly to think of, but it is one step closer to taking away freedoms. Like I said before, if you think that community service is such a wonderful thing, feel free to partake and feel free, as a parent, to have your son do mandatory community service. This reminds me of the people that want to push for 55MPH speed limits on the nation's highways again under the guise that it saves fuel and reduces carbon emissions. If they are that convinced that it is a good idea, feel free to go 55MPH rather than the posted limit, there is nothing that is stopping them from doing so at the moment.
Lastly, if you make community service a mandatory thing, you are taking away from the character and moral value of volunteer work or community service. It is no longer something that people do because they believe in a cause or feel strongly about it. It becomes something that is mandatory and is just one more thing to get done before you can move on. My first reaction to mandatory community service would be "what did I do wrong?" Community service is used as a punishment rather than jail time as a way for people to pay back the community that they wronged. It seems to me that making community service mandatory would detract from the point of assigning community service instead of jail time as well as sending the message to kids that they did something wrong and owe the community for it.
So...to sum up your post...teaching morale values lowers morale values? I guess I need to stop going to church if that is the case.
50 hours is less than one hour per week, 2 hours per week during school would more than cover it. And yes, I'd say do it during school if at all possible or make it a before/after school thing. Community service is a pretty broad idea, it could be something as simple as cleaning the school after hours, planting flowers at the school, assisting the cooks in the kitchen, offering to tutor other students, cleaning up the neighborhood around the school (trash cleanup, repaint old buildings, etc...) it might mean helping at a nursing home, etc. Many of these things can be done w/ little to no taxpayer dollars.
You are right about one thing though, the word "community service" = Punishment in the minds of many people and it shouldn't. It should be something to be proud of not a form of punishment. It should help set an example of how you can help your friends/neighbors/community.
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Well, at the risk of getting accused of "looking like a fool" for "mentioning God".
Why do you think God gave us free will? Why are people allowed to disobey God?
If man did not have the choice to disobey God, there'd be no value, no merit... no righteousness in choosing to obey.
In many cases, when you do good for others, when you give of your time or your finances or whatever, it helps you at least as much as it helps them.
The problem with coerced giving (taxes), and coerced community service (instead of jail) is that it is coerced. It doesn't do anything to build the right kind of heart inside the person doing the act.
It doesn't matter that "doing good" is a good idea and everyone ought to do it. The issue is that forcing someone to be a do gooder doesn't actually instill in them the values that you want them to have. It doens't actually make them a do gooder. It doesn't make them yearn to help people of their own volition.
An omnipotent God could have made us all bow to his will in our every decision and action. But with doing evil (or simply not doing good) being an impossibility, how would we learn to recognize, value, and enjoy choosing to do what is righteous?
I want people to give generously of their time and money. Even children. But I want them to help people because they've learned to want to, not because if they don't there is a government penalty.
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